True | False | FileNotFound was a meme about 2 decades ago, and even that was a reference to MSDOS from another 2 decades earlier. I guess things never change, only the language.
Even now, I still find myself using true/false/null on occasions, but I'm usually smart enough to replace it with an enum at that point. The only time I don't is when it's an optional parameter to a function to override some default/existing value, at which point it then makes sense to keep it as an optional bool.
hinkley 40 days ago [-]
I did a govt contract early on and learned that yes/no/unanswered/unasked was a common quad. I see that in disclosures when applying for jobs as well.
gizmo686 40 days ago [-]
I'm surprised that trinary logic has not become a standard part of standard libraries yet. Almost every project I have worked on ends up with some form of a yes/no/maybe abstraction.
hinkley 40 days ago [-]
With privacy coming back into vogue, it’s useful to distinguish “we didn’t ask” from “they wouldn’t answer”
For some vector logic the distinction could matter.
Aurornis 40 days ago [-]
Yes/No/Maybe is a good fit for an enum because “Maybe” carries some specific information.
For more common situations where the yes/no bool is not available yet or should not be considered, constructs like Rust’s Option<bool> are a very good fit. Layering the bool inside of an Option creates intentional handling about the presence or lack of value first before you can work with it.
nine_k 40 days ago [-]
This just means that the problem requires more than a Boolean, but rather something like boolean | error. In many languages from the OOP heyday that alternative part was expressed via throwing an exception.
gima 40 days ago [-]
"How many options fit into a boolean?"
Five or two, according* to Microsoft.
> MsoTrioState is "a tri-state Boolean value". it has five possible values. only two of them are supported.
Funnily enough that was also my first idea upon reading the headline.
So let's remember: some programmer, somewhere, is right now thinking about building a tri-state boolean because they think it fits their current problem perfectly fine. And they are always wrong.
gizmo686 40 days ago [-]
I've implemented trits a bunch of times and have never regretted it.
How you get 5 possible values into a tri state Boolean is beyond me though.
xen0 39 days ago [-]
That is... amazing.
I think my favourite part is the fact that '1' isn't even one of the supported values.
gizmo686 40 days ago [-]
It's not clear from the article, but "niche optimization" does not mean "optimization that is only useful in a very specific circumstance".
It is a specific optimization based on the idea of storing one type inside of another type by finding a "niche" of unused bit pattern(s) inside the second type.
It has far more useful application than a tower of Option 254 deep.
pavon 40 days ago [-]
Neat. Even knowing about niche optimization I would have guessed that you could fit 7 Options - one bit for each. But the developers were smart enough to take advantage of the fact that you can't have a Some nested below a None, so you only need to represent how many Somes there are before you reach None (or the data), allowing 254 possibilities.
gizmo686 40 days ago [-]
I doubt they were thinking about Option<bool> when making niches work like this.
Option<NonZeroU32> seems like a much more reasonable to justify this with. Also, enums can easily have invalid bit patterns that are unused without there being any specific bit that is always available. All you need is a single variant of the enum to have a free bit, and you have a niche to shove None into.
nine_k 40 days ago [-]
The scoop: a boolean can't be smaller than a byte. Full 254 level of nested Option<bool> fit into it. (C++ needs much more for even a single level.)
shagie 40 days ago [-]
For Java developers... you can use Optional<Boolean> to store the elusive four possible booleans.
public static void main (String[] args) {
Optional<Boolean> n = Optional.ofNullable(null);
Optional<Boolean> e = Optional.empty();
System.out.println(n.equals(e));
}
true
Optional<Boolean> n = null;
Optional<Boolean> e = Optional.empty();
Optional<Boolean> t = Optional.of(Boolean.TRUE);
Optional<Boolean> f = Optional.of(Boolean.FALSE);
> looking at Rust … it turns out that `Option<bool>` takes up exactly one byte of memory, the same as bool! The same is true for `Option<Option<bool>>`, all the way up to 254 nested options.
Ah how many of those options fit into that boolean. Word games!
vadelfe 40 days ago [-]
The deeper you go into memory layout, the more you realize that even "simple" types aren't that simple.
RobotToaster 40 days ago [-]
>and that it takes up one byte of memory
You can make them smaller using bitfields in C.
AlotOfReading 40 days ago [-]
The object it's inside will still take up at least one byte.
sizeof(struct {bool a:1;}) == sizeof(char);
hinkley 40 days ago [-]
Amortization.
If one Boolean must be a byte then 8 must be eight bytes. Which is not true. A boolean can be 1/8th of a byte which is a meaningful distinction.
hinkley 40 days ago [-]
3^5 is 243 so one could also call an optional Boolean 1/5th of a byte, though 1/4 is so much simpler to read and write.
gottheUIblues 40 days ago [-]
A trit is log(3)/(8log(2))=0.19812031259014 of a byte
russdill 40 days ago [-]
Um, no. Please show me how you can fit 255 possible states in something smaller than a byte by using bitfields.
RobotToaster 40 days ago [-]
I was quoting the first paragraph, where it says a single normal bool takes a byte.
5o1ecist 39 days ago [-]
[dead]
johnthescott 39 days ago [-]
a two bit, boolish data type used for simple replies from a network: true, false, null and waiting. called a "rummy".
priowise 40 days ago [-]
[dead]
Rendered at 16:06:49 GMT+0000 (UTC) with Wasmer Edge.
Even now, I still find myself using true/false/null on occasions, but I'm usually smart enough to replace it with an enum at that point. The only time I don't is when it's an optional parameter to a function to override some default/existing value, at which point it then makes sense to keep it as an optional bool.
For some vector logic the distinction could matter.
For more common situations where the yes/no bool is not available yet or should not be considered, constructs like Rust’s Option<bool> are a very good fit. Layering the bool inside of an Option creates intentional handling about the presence or lack of value first before you can work with it.
> MsoTrioState is "a tri-state Boolean value". it has five possible values. only two of them are supported.
*) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-au/dotnet/api/microsoft.offic...
Sourced from here https://fedi.lynnesbian.space/@lynnesbian/115969259564305759
So let's remember: some programmer, somewhere, is right now thinking about building a tri-state boolean because they think it fits their current problem perfectly fine. And they are always wrong.
How you get 5 possible values into a tri state Boolean is beyond me though.
I think my favourite part is the fact that '1' isn't even one of the supported values.
It is a specific optimization based on the idea of storing one type inside of another type by finding a "niche" of unused bit pattern(s) inside the second type.
It has far more useful application than a tower of Option 254 deep.
Option<NonZeroU32> seems like a much more reasonable to justify this with. Also, enums can easily have invalid bit patterns that are unused without there being any specific bit that is always available. All you need is a single variant of the enum to have a free bit, and you have a niche to shove None into.
A null in an Optional is empty. So you've got:
Optional.of(null) throws an NPE
Ah how many of those options fit into that boolean. Word games!
You can make them smaller using bitfields in C.
If one Boolean must be a byte then 8 must be eight bytes. Which is not true. A boolean can be 1/8th of a byte which is a meaningful distinction.