I'm probably not the only one who got an email from "Brandon Saltalamacchia" with
We're giving you a full 30-day trial of Kagi Professional because we know you'll
love it. Click "here" to activate your trial, no strings attached.
Well, clicked on it, saw that OF COURSE it'll convert to a normal subscription after the trial, which I usually wouldn't have a big problem with, but this is clearly a string that is very much attached. This kind of BS communication does not leave a good impression on me.
wazdra 9 minutes ago [-]
[delayed]
Mossy9 20 hours ago [-]
I've been loving Kagi search and am really looking forward to Orion being available outside Apple land. You can join the email list here: https://kagi.com/changelog#6479
I'm a bit worried that Kagi might be over-extending here. Instead of focusing and capitalizing on search, they're expanding to the difficult business of browsers. I'm always hesitant when companies try to do everything everywhere all at once, since that might cause a loosening of focus on the original product.
I hope them all the best nonetheless - people actually paying for software is due a comeback!
jmbwell 18 hours ago [-]
Trying to use Kagi with other browsers lays bare the depth of collusion between browser makers and search providers. Getting out from under all that makes Kagi a whole lot more seamless and useful.
It’s ironic that it is its own tight collusion, with the difference that you can use Orion just as well with any other search providers as with Kagi.
So yeah, it seems like a departure from search, until you consider that for the features that make Kagi a worthwhile search product (privacy, neutrality, etc), “you can’t get there from here” with the other browsers.
chias 16 hours ago [-]
This is something I don't understand. Kagi has been my only search engine since they dropped the price to $10/mo. I've only ever used Kagi with Firefox, and I use it on Linux, Windows, and Mac. I just add it to my search engines and set it as default, which takes about 15 seconds.
Everything seems to just work seamlessly. Searching in private windows works without any configuration or token juggling.
I have never tried the Orion browser or the extension because I don't understand the problem that they allegedly solve.
treesknees 15 hours ago [-]
To set it as your default search engine on iOS, you need to first install a separate Kagi Search app from the App Store, enable the extension, and then dig through some fairly obscure Safari settings so that the Kagi app can run with enough permissions to intercept/redirect search URLs for other search engines.
So now when I search in Safari, the browser says “DuckDuckGo Search” but when I hit return Kagi jumps in. I also had to turn off search suggestions because those (as far as I know) would still come from DDG.
Volundr 15 hours ago [-]
This seems more like an indictment of iOS than collusion between search and browser vendors. I'm using Kagi as my default search on Android, Linux, Mac, and Windows, both Chrome and Firefox. The kind of nonsense your describing us why iOS doesn't show up in my list of devices.
treesknees 15 hours ago [-]
My point was more that you claimed to not understand and I was just providing an example where it does take longer than “15 seconds” to switch to Kagi.
iOS/iPhone has the majority mobile market share in many countries including the United States. If you’re unaware, Google is currently being sued by the US government for establishing a monopoly over search engine placement including payments to Apple and Mozilla to keep Google as the default search engine. So, with that context, can you honestly say there’s no collusion between search providers and browser vendors?
Dylan16807 11 hours ago [-]
> My point was more that you claimed to not understand and I was just providing an example where it does take longer than “15 seconds” to switch to Kagi.
It's an example, but it's not an example that proves the point.
> iOS/iPhone has the majority mobile market share in many countries including the United States. If you’re unaware, Google is currently being sued by the US government for establishing a monopoly over search engine placement including payments to Apple and Mozilla to keep Google as the default search engine. So, with that context, can you honestly say there’s no collusion between search providers and browser vendors?
Yes, easily.
The comment was talking about depth of collusion in making it significantly not seamless. But even with Google pushing a default, it's a trivial switch on Android.
On top of that, Google pushing their search engine onto Android phones has nothing to do with "browser vendors". It's a different topic.
So I say Android is not an example, and desktop is fine, leaving the only example of problems as Apple. Even if I think that's collusion, just Apple doing a thing is not collusion over the general market of browser makers. But I'm also skeptical that it's collusion. Apple always offers limited choices and bad customizability.
dcow 11 hours ago [-]
I find it hard to believe that Google just happens to be the default search engine everywhere. And that the best user experience for Apple’s users is to have a search engine list that you have to pay to be on. And that if you change your default search engine or browser newtab half the browsers out there will nag you to switch it back for “security”. And if you visit the internet’s home page on anything other than Chrome you get bombarded with popups compelling you to install Chrome.
If you’re not aware of the “collusion” you might just be asleep at the wheel. You may be right semantically, though: it might not really be collusion—it’s simply light of day bribery.
Dylan16807 11 hours ago [-]
> I find it hard to believe that Google just happens to be the default search engine everywhere.
I didn't say there wasn't collusion of any kind. I said Google being the default on android is not collusion with browser vendors.
And on Windows, Bing is the default.
> And if you visit the internet’s home page on anything other than Chrome you get bombarded with popups compelling you to install Chrome.
Self-promotion is not collusion.
Also critical to my point is that collusion to set a mere default is not what the original comment was talking about. You don't need to switch your browser to "lay bare the depth" of a default. They were talking about something much stronger.
dcow 10 hours ago [-]
The point is there are non-trivial examples where it’s really hard to switch your default search engine away from Google/Bing because all paths lead back to them (via platform self-promotion and paid placement). One might even argue that the dominant search engine owning the dominant user-agent is implicitly illegal (and thus I guess collusive, but I digress). I don’t really know what we’re arguing anymore. I think everyone knows that it’s not universally easy to switch your search engine. The fact that there are good examples like Android does not invalidate the bad examples like *OS and Windows. It’s difficult enough that I can’t believe it’s all natural and organic. Money is changing hands and/or the spirit of existing laws is being ignored to enforce or at least maim the optimal-for-users search experience. Certainly we can agree on that much.
Dylan16807 9 hours ago [-]
> The point is there are non-trivial examples where it’s really hard to switch your default search engine away from Google/Bing
Bing is the only one you really get stuck with, and that only happens outside of the browser. You can change the search engine for searches started inside of Edge.
Bing is also not an example of collusion. It's Microsoft promoting Microsoft.
> I don’t really know what we’re arguing anymore.
Here is what I'm arguing: If you want to say there is a mixture of different types of collusion and monopolistic self-pushing connected to search engines, I agree with you. But the claim earlier was about a very specific type of [deep] collusion, that would make it difficult to change the search engine that a browser uses, that is easy to see when trying to use Kagi. But that difficulty only exists on iOS. It's not true in general. (And I'm not convinced that the specific issue on iOS is a collusion problem rather than an Apple-knows-best problem.)
ericrallen 9 hours ago [-]
Just as a heads up, the Firefox iOS app makes it super easy to set Kagi to your default search engine.
I think it might have even just sync’d over from my desktop settings? I never even thought about it, it just worked.
dizhn 2 hours ago [-]
They might want to push Privacy Pass with their own browser. It requires an extension on Chrome and Firefox.
malnourish 16 hours ago [-]
I use Kagi at work in Firefox and Edge with no issues.
I use it at home with Firefox and Chrome (Windows 10) and Iceraven on Android. No issues.
SSLy 15 hours ago [-]
Yet the list of search engines in iOS Safari is locked and I can't add my own.
belmont_sup 15 hours ago [-]
I had to install the Kagi for Safari app on iOS. This lets me install the extension and switch it to on my phone.
SSLy 15 hours ago [-]
that extension intercepts the queries. Kagi couldn't make it any other way. And I don't mean this as a grievance against Kagi, but agains APPL's policies.
15 hours ago [-]
lxgr 15 hours ago [-]
> Trying to use Kagi with other browsers lays bare the depth of collusion between browser makers and search providers.
Absolutely. Safari not offering any way to add Kagi without weird hacks or extensions is absurd.
I get the case for search engines paying browser vendors a cut for being the default, but still getting paid after the user has overridden that selection is already somewhat dubious, and not allowing the user to fully provide their own query URL at all should be illegal.
handsclean 12 hours ago [-]
It’s Safari you’re talking about. All other browsers, even Chrome, support arbitrary default search engines, while Safari doesn’t even support them via extension, requiring ugly redirect hacks. Privacy Pass is similar, with all browsers letting you implement it as an extension, except Safari. The problem is entirely and only Safari.
lurk2 17 hours ago [-]
> (privacy, neutrality, etc)
It's proprietary. There's no way of knowing that it's private.
saagarjha 15 hours ago [-]
If only we had a field of computer science dedicated to analyzing the security properties of black boxes…
kerkeslager 12 hours ago [-]
I'm curious how you think this can be analyzed effectively.
Yes, I'm aware of bytecode analysis, but that's a slow difficult process, and for browsers, the release cycle is short enough that by the time you're done analyzing the current version, a new version is out, and it's significantly harder and less useful to diff a binary, so you end up having to basically start the analysis over for the new version. Unless there's something going on here that I don't know of, that's simply not a viable means of keeping track of browser security.
15 hours ago [-]
42lux 19 hours ago [-]
They started with Orion.
erics118 16 minutes ago [-]
Their original product was an AI product, that later transformed into the search engine. Then, Orion was developed
Oh really? I did not know that. Sounds a lot better than the other way around
brightball 18 hours ago [-]
My guess is that they realize the opportunity created by Mozilla’s sudden change in privacy terms.
erics118 14 minutes ago [-]
I doubt this is the case. They were working on a prototype back in October 2023 [1], but then the contractor bailed out [2], but now they got (probably different) people working on it now
I think this is correct. I refuse to touch Chromium with a ten-foot pole, but there aren't really any other options on Linux. (Yes, there is LibreWolf and other forks, but I doubt any have the resources to "go it alone" should Mozilla fold or go completely turncoat.)
The closest extant option is something like GNOME Web (also based on WebKit like Orion) but the lack of extension support and poor performance makes it a non-starter.
As someone who already pays for Kagi search, Orion will definitely be on my radar. I'll gladly volunteer $5/mo if I can just copy-paste my extensions unchanged and keep browsing.
TingPing 13 hours ago [-]
WebKitGTk performance has improved a ton in the past few releases. Orion will ofc match that. Also working on WebExtensions in upstream hopefully by end of year.
saagarjha 15 hours ago [-]
They've been working on Orion for years.
amelius 16 hours ago [-]
Relax, they didn't write the entire browser. It's webkit based.
ZiiS 16 hours ago [-]
That seems like saying people who climb Everest are not starting in the Mariana Trench. The fact you could have made it ten times harder doesn't necessarily stop it being foolhardy.
zamadatix 16 hours ago [-]
Having been wondering what their cross platform plans for Orion were the other day and seeing this in the FAQ I don't think it's fair to frame it as small potatoes work just because it could have been even harder. It's still real work and a significant effort. https://help.kagi.com/orion/faq/faq.html#other_os_support:
"Are there plans for a Windows/Linux/Android version of Orion?
We currently do not have the resources to hire a new team to do any of these platforms yet.
Since Orion is funded by its users only, it is entirely up to the number of subscribers and Orion+ sales we have that will enable funding a new team to make Orion for any new platform. And building a browser is not cheap, especially one on top of WebKit."
Interesting that they concluded Linux was the next most worthwhile one to target but I suppose is probably more popular with users attracted to Kagi/Orion.
saagarjha 15 hours ago [-]
Linux is the platform which WebKit has the best support for, following macOS.
SllX 15 hours ago [-]
The CEO of Kagi has fairly strong views on user privacy as far as I can tell. I don’t know what his opinion of Windows is, but I’m willing to bet there’s a personal dislike of Windows and Android that is at least partially affecting the decision-making process here.
They also don’t seem like they’re trying to go big, just stay profitable.
throwaway7858 11 hours ago [-]
Android can be much more private than iOS if you pull the right levers - GrapheneOS is based on Android after all.
SllX 11 hours ago [-]
Sure, can be. On the other hand, most people are running Google’s Android or a PRC-market exclusive offshoot on Samsung, Xiaomi, Huawei and OnePlus phones. That’s Android. Everything else is a rounding error.
Aeolun 15 hours ago [-]
I recently decided against Orion because I have linux machines as well. Can’t use it if it doesn’t sync across all my devices.
Crontab 16 hours ago [-]
Doesn't Kagi Search just regurgitate Google's search results?
atombender 3 hours ago [-]
I'm a Kagi user and did a couple of test searches just now. Ignoring inserts like image results and "related searches" and so on, the results were completely different.
Note that if it this were true, Kagi brings features to the table that make it worth the price. For one, it allows you to prioritize/deprioritize sites, and it allows you to block sites from all search results.
niutech 2 hours ago [-]
This is what Brave Search does too with Goggles.
zamadatix 16 hours ago [-]
Kagi mixes many different sources, including some from their own indexes. They lean heavy into the "try to answer using an integration with a more focused oracle" rather than the "throw as many sites at the user as possible" approach.
Hikikomori 15 hours ago [-]
Not in my experience. Can also block or derank domains in your result, no more quora or Pinterest.
lawn 10 hours ago [-]
Kagi has much better results in my experience.
jasonvorhe 16 hours ago [-]
Never seen that happen and I've done hundreds of comparative searches by now.
aryonoco 11 hours ago [-]
Considering that Kagis’s results are actually useful and google just brings up listicles and ads, I’d say no.
dcow 11 hours ago [-]
Didn’t Kagi ship Orion first, before the search product?
Kagi has been one of the biggest value adds to my online life in a long time. Paying for the Kagi ultimate plans gets me access to the latest LLM models, and an incredible customizable search engine with a large focus on privacy. The Orion browser has been my favorite to use on iOS, I’m not sure if I’d use the desktop version because of its web kit base. But I’m glad to see it’s moving forward.
frizlab 18 hours ago [-]
Using a non-chromium browser is actually the only thing we can do nowadays to promote an open web. Also I have next to no issues using webkit on the web currently. It’s a good engine now.
lurk2 17 hours ago [-]
> Using a non-chromium browser is actually the only thing we can do nowadays to promote an open web.
Orion is closed source.
pyrophane 16 hours ago [-]
I believe the above is just referring to diversity of engines. If 99% of everyone uses Chromium then there’s no incentive to support open standards that work across all browsers.
vvpan 19 hours ago [-]
I keep being confused by this. People mention that Kagi has all these features but I never see them, do I have to up my subscription plan?
galleywest200 19 hours ago [-]
It seems that a lot of them are sort of "off" by default to keep search focused on search. If you want to get an LLM summary of a search, for example, end the search with a question mark. Example: "what is gravity?" instead of "what is gravity".
Can also click the quick answer link on existing search results page.
And each search result item had a menu that includes an option to summarize the page.
radicality 17 hours ago [-]
I use that super often, probably in vast majority of searches. It's basically an llm synthesized version of the results. You can also get it by the shortcut `q` on the results page, or by ending your query with a `?`
vvpan 19 hours ago [-]
Oh I see. I knew "lenses" existed but as you say it's a multi-step process to use them and not from the browser search bar.
i_love_retros 17 hours ago [-]
You need the ultimate plan to get the assistant which gives access to lots of llms
james_pm 20 hours ago [-]
Orion for macOS is still pretty buggy and, in my experience, a bit too frustrating to use as my default browser. I want to use it and pay the $5/month even though I don't use it all the time. It's close to being good, but not quite there yet.
12_throw_away 19 hours ago [-]
Yeah, I basically give orion a try every few months, I think the idea is fantastic. But it just hasn't ever hit the level of bug-free reliability that I would need, especially with extension compatibility. (Can't say this is surprising at all - making a web browser would be a ton of work even if the web wasn't a moving target)
It does seem like their long tail of issues is going down - each time I check in, it is clearly improved. So fingers crossed it continues to get better ...
mholm 16 hours ago [-]
I think the biggest problem ends up being what Apple makes available to it. It does so well at feeling just like Safari, but Apple appears to not make Apple Pay, Safari keychain, and automatic sms code entry (easily) accessible to third party apps. That's what keeps making me switch back to Safari
alpaca128 5 hours ago [-]
I recently tried it on iPad and unfortunately it feels mostly like a slightly less intuitive Safari with some touch gestures missing, and missed opportunity to fix one of them (swiping right to go back doesn’t work while the sidebar is open). Once I got Kagi search to work in Safari there was no reason to use Orion.
nicce 19 hours ago [-]
Some bugs are pretty bad. There was one that drained my battery in 30mins. But I know it is difficult for a small team.
bpev 10 hours ago [-]
Yeahhhh this exact bug is why I haven’t been able to use Orion as my main browser. I usually use Safari, pretty much purely for the battery life gains.
throwaway743950 19 hours ago [-]
How long ago was that? I've been seeing consistent progress on bugginess.
nicce 18 hours ago [-]
This was actually just last week. I guess GitHub made that, but I could not yet reproduce it.
jmbwell 18 hours ago [-]
Counteranecdata: I use Orion every day as my daily driver on my work machine, together with Bitwarden for passwords and a couple simple extensions. I can’t remember it crashing or failing to render a page, and at least on my apple silicon machine, it has been very polite with resources.
evanreichard 11 hours ago [-]
The current version of Bitwarden straight up doesn't work in Orion [0]. I ran into this yesterday when setting it up for the first time. Wasn't a great first experience as it's literally the only extension that is a deal breaker to me.
I'm still giving Orion a chance for now... I just installed a slightly older version that works.
Same, in a way. I've been using it for a couple months on my MacBook Pro M2 Max, zero issues. Recently I installed it on my work laptop, M4 Max, and I get frequent crashes. No idea why it would make a difference.
bodash 15 hours ago [-]
Orion on YouTube is unusable at the moment. Click play, ad plays 1 second, disappears but then nothing else plays. Click again, another ad briefly appears and disappears. Have to resort back to Firefox with uBlock Origin just to watch YouTube
fnordsensei 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah, seeing this one too. Is it an Orion or Safari thing though?
ZeroTalent 14 hours ago [-]
It killed my battery. tried for a month.
grahamj 17 hours ago [-]
I’ve been full-timing it on iOS lately and yeah, pretty buggy. It comes with uBlock but doesn’t seem to work, and neither does bookmark/fave syncing.
CodeCompost 19 hours ago [-]
Kagi is cool and all but...
I'm in Europe. I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
Any good EU alternatives?
quinncom 17 hours ago [-]
Two ongoing projects to solve this:
Qwant and Ecosia, two European search engines, announced on October 24, 2023, a partnership to develop a European search index to lessen their dependence on US tech giants Google and Microsoft.
https://insidetelecom.com/qwant-and-ecosia-are-building-an-i...
For the OpenWebSearch.eu initiative, 14 renowned European research and computer centers from 7 countries have joined forces to develop an open European infrastructure for web search
https://openwebsearch.eu/
init2null 17 hours ago [-]
Fair enough, but I want the best possible searches. So that means Kagi, which includes Google, Bing, Brave, Yandex, and its own small web indexer. Pure European search is just unrealistic right now. Not unless you prefer the Eastern European flavor of Yandex alone.
niutech 2 hours ago [-]
As we're talking about Orion browser, there is Servo web engine and Servoshell backed by Linux Foundation Europe.
I’m in the same boat but for Kagi it’s a little different : I don’t pay them because they are privacy friendly (or at least that’s another reason) but because the search quality is better than everything else, including Google.
It's about jurisdiction. You can claim to be privacy friendly but if the laws in the country your services are being offered from can legally demand you break it...
freehorse 18 hours ago [-]
There is no good alternative right now. Even eu-based ones use google's or bing's search indexes, essentially being a different frontend for google and bing, so imo it does not make much difference. Kagi sort of does sth similar, but much better imo, which is also why I use them.
There is a common initiative by ecosia and qwant to build their own index [0], which is hopeful though, and something to look forward to.
Seems to be based on Google and Brave, both US companies.
areyourllySorry 17 hours ago [-]
extra salt in the wound because they pay google for the queries. at least when searching yourself you pay with data, which may or may not be less profitable for them
II2II 11 hours ago [-]
I'm seeing similar attitudes in my country and am disgusted by it. It mirrors and reinforces the isolationist attitudes that we are seeing in the US. We should be looking outwards in an effort to diversify our options and strengthen our ties to other countries, rather than looking inwards. (Yes, I realize the EU is a collection of countries. Yet there is more to the world than the EU.)
If Kagi is truly cool, by cool I am including opposition to current American policies, and you think they offer a good product, then you shouldn't fret about supporting them. If they aren't cool, then by all means look for alternatives.
crystal_revenge 17 hours ago [-]
> I'm in Europe. I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
It's worth pointing out that you're going to struggle with this, and it's because (as all software engineers know) Europe has never supported a strong tech/software developer friendly culture. To be clear: I am not saying there are not fantastic devs in Europe (in fact, most of the devs I respect the most are European), but the EU has always struggled to pay competitively and grow its local software community. In fact, all the amazing software engineers I know in Europe.. work for US companies, making US software products (and making US total comp).
Here's a quote of Alan Kay talking about this is in 1997
> [Dijkstra] once wrote a paper—of the kind that he liked to write a lot of—which had the title On the fact that the Atlantic has two sides. It was basically all about how different the approaches to computing science were in Europe, especially in Holland and in the United States. In the US, here, we were not mathematical enough, and gee, in Holland, if you're a full professor, you're actually appointed by the Queen, and there are many other uh important distinctions made between the two cultures. So, uhm, I wrote a rebuttal paper, just called On the fact that most of the software in the world is written on one side of the Atlantic.
The time to address this, unfortunately for Europe, is not today, but 30-40 years ago.
sebazzz 16 hours ago [-]
You can't generalize the EU. It are dozens of completely different countries.
> In fact, all the amazing software engineers I know in Europe.. work for US companies, making US software products (and making US total comp).
What is an amazing software developer if it is not someone who delivers business value? Because there are a lot of software development companies in the Netherlands for instance, or teams part of companies, and they surely deliver business value or they wouldn't exist.
By now I would also bet that of the small subset of developers considering emigrating to the States, sure think they've now dodged a bullet.
Aeolun 15 hours ago [-]
They deliver a lot of value, and they’re even so good at it that they’re often consulting for large overseas companies. But it’s like ASML, do you see anyone making chips using their stuff in the Netherlands?
Smithalicious 16 hours ago [-]
Very convincing quote.
alchemist1e9 18 hours ago [-]
> I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
Can you explain why? From privacy and free speech perspectives aren’t US services now better?
Kagi now probably has the best search privacy features in the world after recent upgrades with Privacy Pass and even a ToR endpoint.
upcoming-sesame 18 hours ago [-]
Because the recent trade war has started a trend of "buy European' across the continent
buy-european-made.eu
palata 15 hours ago [-]
Not that I disagree, but I think it's more than that: the US have started a trend of "boycott the US" across those who used to consider them as allies after... you know the US government not only embraced fascism but also started threatening to invade said ex allies and destabilising Europe.
Pretty sure that there is a similar trend in Canada or Mexico, for instance.
alchemist1e9 17 hours ago [-]
Before these trade war escalations the US imposed an average tariff rate of about 3.5% on EU goods, notably lower than the EU’s 5.2% on US goods, and lacked the high, sector-specific tariffs seen in the EU. While the US maintained a relatively uniform rate, 2.5% on cars and slightly higher on food and chemicals—the EU targeted certain US sectors with very steep tariffs, like 32.3% on dairy.
We should also mention VAT. The EU’s 21% VAT jacks up prices, a €100 item hitting €121 will slash demand. This provided around €1 trillion revenue for EU governments in 2024. While the US’s typical 7% sales tax keeps a $100 item at $107, hurting demand less, total about $457 billion in 2024. This gap makes US goods pricier in the EU (27.7% markup with tariffs) versus EU goods in the US (10.8% markup), acting like an extra trade wall for American exports, while the EU’s VAT refund on exports gives their firms a edge.
Notice we haven’t even mentioned defense spending yet …
Hikikomori 15 hours ago [-]
Clown in charge is more than enough reason to divest from US.
Phelinofist 16 hours ago [-]
Do you understand that stuff made in Europe and sold in Europe is also subject to the VAT?
berdario 16 hours ago [-]
it seems he also overlooked, in his tirade against EU VAT, that almost the whole world has VAT.
It's just an handful of countries like USA and Malaysia that are the weird ones, and don't implement a VAT tax
9283409232 14 hours ago [-]
VAT is a reductive tax that taxes the poor instead of the rich. Coincidentally, Trump supports adding VAT to the US.
Pooge 5 hours ago [-]
Please call me out if I'm just being delusional but I think VAT is a great way to tax rich people.
They already have a lot of ways to avoid taxes, but at least with VAT they pay the same as everybody else. They are going to buy expensive food or drinks at restaurants and 8% (in my country) of that is going to be taxed. Someone more modest is going to eat at a less expensive place and is going to pay 8% on something less expensive.
I'm aware of the luxury tax but I don't think it's better than the VAT tax.
9283409232 54 minutes ago [-]
For people in poverty, 8% is the difference between getting that extra carton of eggs or not getting it. For rich people, it doesn't matter. It's not that VAT doesn't tax rich people it's that it taxes poor people a lot harder.
Pooge 25 minutes ago [-]
I completely get your point. What would you suggest, then?
wasabi991011 15 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that the EU isn't being "fair" to the US?
I'm not sure how that would change the incentive for European citizens to rely more on European products in the face of possible future tariffs.
jeroenhd 13 hours ago [-]
I'm considering cutting out American services as well. The US is starting trade wars left, right, and center, and the current government has barely gotten started. With the white house siding with the Russians, threatening war against Canada and Denmark, and the whole NATO situation, I think it'll be foolish of me to depend on American services. For all I know, our countries may well be at war by the end of the year.
As for privacy: American privacy laws are even more of a joke than the GDPR. The lack of privacy rights for non-American citizens is the main reason the GDPR bans storing PII in the US.
As for free speech: the kind of free speech American tech companies are offering right now is not something I'm very interested in. America ranking lower than my country in every freedom index I can find also doesn't help.
Furthermore, paying a browser that actively does business with Yandex doesn't sit well with me, even if it won't affect me directly. The comments the CEO made about not caring about "geopolitics" doesn't reassure me much, either.
rc_mob 16 hours ago [-]
America under Trump is the least free that America has ever been. Your freedom argument is outdated, The USA has a fascism problem right now and we are trying to fight it.
sepositus 13 hours ago [-]
Are you from the US?
EasyMark 14 hours ago [-]
I can understand their position. USA appears to be leaving NATO and promoting Russia's interests (through both pulling back from treaties and allies, and embracing Russian style diplomacy and oligarchical government), it's pretty easy to see why Europeans would get squirmy about American companies.
9283409232 15 hours ago [-]
> Can you explain why? From privacy and free speech perspectives aren’t US services now better?
In regards to privacy, the country is increasingly trying to pass age verification bills as a way to backdoor more surveillance into law while a billionaire is running around slurping up everyone's private data.
In regards to free speech, the President sues journalist he doesn't agree with, passed an executive order to target lawyers he doesn't like, and is trying to get a law passed that will allow him to further target people who try to hold him accountable.
To say the US is better on both privacy and free speech is either uninformed or delusional.
palata 15 hours ago [-]
I wonder if companies will try to move away from services like Google Suite or Microsoft Teams or Slack. Because it essentially means that the US can read all the internal communications. That's a big security problem, especially now that the US have become... unstable.
timbit42 8 minutes ago [-]
Absolutely. While I haven't heard of it happening yet, I have seen talks about doing so.
CodeCompost 17 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
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sunshine-o 16 hours ago [-]
I am seeing this a lot recently, people trying to switch to EU based alternatives.
I am not sure exactly what are your motivations but if it is privacy and trying to fight some sort of tyranny, I am afraid this might be a bit naive and maybe counterproductive.
The EU is as much influenced by the interests of Big tech than the US. Maybe even more in a way. The regulations and fines you hear about are kayfabe.
It is looking more and more like the net of regulations the EU is rolling out is turning Europe into a digital Gulag.
Right now they only really met a resistance for that ChatControl one [0] but they have been trying for years over and over again, and will probably win at the end.
The irony is if you want and EU alternative you might need to defeat the EU first, who has been preventing the emergence of alternatives for decades now. Or just selfhost as much as possible at home for now.
I use Orion a bit on Mac. The blocker for me is that it doesn't support Ublock Origin. They claim that their built in ad blocking does 90% of what you need, but I really just want to be able to remove page elements at will.
vulcan01 17 hours ago [-]
This is kind of surprising. For me, uBlock Origin works perfectly on Orion (installed from the Firefox store), and the element zapper / eyedropper in uBlock Origin works as well. I haven't seen any difference between uBlock Origin on Firefox vs Orion.
stevage 16 hours ago [-]
Thanks, will investigate again.
cosmic_cheese 18 hours ago [-]
Orion has a native element remover, just click the paintbrush icon in the toolbar.
uBlock Origin support is at least partial because whenever I click an analytics-redirect link in my email and it opens in Orion, I get a uBlock “tracker blocked” page.
BrawnyBadger53 16 hours ago [-]
I'm using Orion with ublock origin right now?
konart 19 hours ago [-]
Kagi is still buggy as hell for me though.
Text selection jumps all around even on hacker news (I say even because HN is pretty has pretty simple html\css\etc). Any web site with non-english letters and complex layot kills it.
CGamesPlay 16 hours ago [-]
I assume you mean Orion. Does that still happen if you enable compatibility mode? I don't have the same problem, but I've reported several problems on the feedback forum and had some luck with getting them resolved.
konart 10 hours ago [-]
Ooopsie. Yes, I was talking about the browser. I'll read about compatibility mode, but I'm not sure why would I need to enable something like this on an WebKit browser on MacOs while Safari is doing great.
perihelions 20 hours ago [-]
Primary source:
- "We're thrilled to announce that development of the Orion Browser for Linux has officially started!"
What exactly is the benefit over Waterfox or Ungoogled Chromium here? The FAQ https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#firefox seems to be things that are specific to Mac or have privacy features already offered by open-source alternatives.
c0balt 20 hours ago [-]
Fwiw, it's a webkit-based browser. Another alternative browser engine in a usable browser is a plus for the Ecosystem.
On the other hand, it promises to be a simple yet usable (builtin adblock + privacy) browser. Ime, brave is probably the closest however it has a lot of nagging around their crypto and ads.
wkat4242 19 hours ago [-]
Kagi has crypto now too? I thought that was just brave.
yurishimo 19 hours ago [-]
The comment you replied to is also saying that they find the Brave crypto annoying.
ZeroTalent 14 hours ago [-]
I don't touch Brave because of the crypto thing and founder's affiliations.
wkat4242 10 hours ago [-]
Well yes so do I. I'll never use it
c0balt 16 hours ago [-]
No, it doesn't. Sorry, my comment was not worded clearly there. The nagging around crypto and ads on the homepage are a (anti-)feature of brave (that don't exist in Orion).
ashton314 19 hours ago [-]
Kagi does not have crypto
cosmic_cheese 18 hours ago [-]
For the Mac version, one of the “features” is that it’s built with the native UI toolkit and tries to blend into the desktop instead of setting itself apart with “branded UI” like browsers tend to do these days. Presumably the Linux version (which I’m assuming is built with GTK) would similarly adhere to GTK desktop (mostly GNOME) conventions.
niutech 1 hours ago [-]
GNOME Web does that and it's open source. What's the selling point of Orion on Linux?
Mossy9 20 hours ago [-]
I would say it's the business model. Customers paying you to provide a good service is straightforward for both parties
7thpower 18 hours ago [-]
Orion was a letdown for me. I’ve tried multiple times to switch over but basic things like autofill not working consistently were dealbreakers.
mathverse 4 hours ago [-]
Kagi should try to find an additional revenue stream instead of trying super complicated and complex projects like maintaining a browser (even if it's just some kind of fork like Arc).
edent 20 hours ago [-]
I wish there were a Webkit based browser for Android.
There are dozens of Firefox- and Chrome-based browsers, but nothing else. Wonder why?
mappu 18 hours ago [-]
Igalia are doing an Android port of webkit named WPE-Android[1] including a mini browser shell. There is an APK you can run[2].
Because a browser is not just the engine (JS, Wasm, ...). A chrome/Firefox derivate is far easier to create because you can piggyback on their integration work (and maintenance) around these components.
palata 15 hours ago [-]
I have been a happy user of Kagi search for a couple years, but I really hope they don't start going everywhere.
They have Kagi translate, they also mentioned building an email service. I like Kagi search because it works well. I actively avoid their other products because I want to encourage them to stay focused and make a good product.
freediver 14 hours ago [-]
Thank you for your feedback. Please do not avoid our other products :) It makes the Kagi eco-system stronger. We do not want to be a one product company, at mercy of big tech and other platforms. We are genuinly trying to create a user-friendly, user-centric alternative for consuming the web. It has always been the plan. And all that while keeping the search product changelog the most active of any search engine in the world https://kagi.com/changelog
tuananh 2 hours ago [-]
a closed source browser is no go for me.
dogman123 20 hours ago [-]
Orion on iOS has been life changing for me.
Volundr 20 hours ago [-]
As a Linux Firefox user who is Orion-curious I'd be interested in hearing more about how.
kemotep 20 hours ago [-]
Full manifest v2 ublock origin on an iOS browser is pretty amazing.
teruakohatu 20 hours ago [-]
You got me excited and I installed it but uBlock Origin does not work and is not supported on iOS.
If you have it installed and it appears to be working, it’s probably the default native ad blocker that’s doing the work.
Wait... so they browser says it's supports manifest v2 and lets you install v2 extensions, but then they just silently don't work? That's pretty confusing behavior. Why even offer them if they're blocked on an OS level?
teruakohatu 15 hours ago [-]
That is my understanding, they can’t fully implement some of the lower level functions on iOS. The APIs seem to fail but fail silently so you can install the extension, it appears to be working but it does not.
I think failing loudly would be better for users.
MarcusE1W 15 hours ago [-]
My understanding is that Orion has already installed uBlock Origin out of the box. No need to install the extension.
kemotep 15 hours ago [-]
Huh because I thought it was nuts I could block youtube ads. I thought it was ublock.
knowitnone 20 hours ago [-]
can you expound on this "life change"?
dogman123 18 hours ago [-]
It allows Firefox and chrome extensions!
throwaway743950 19 hours ago [-]
Not who you are responding to, but it properly blocks ads. I can actually view things like recipes on mobile. It's great! (Blocks YT ads too.)
brendoelfrendo 17 hours ago [-]
Being able to set my default browser to Kagi was enough. I'll deal with Orion's bugs for now because I don't want to go back.
goneri 8 hours ago [-]
I used to be a Kagi customer, but the fact that they waste their energy with all these distractions is depressing. They should instead build a real search engine and stop reselling Bing.
sebazzz 16 hours ago [-]
Nice, if it runs on Linux it can run on Windows through WSL.
shipp02 18 hours ago [-]
I would've thought that Windows would be the next platform to port to given its larger user base.
Maybe the decision speaks to the distribution of Kagi users across operating systems.
cosmic_cheese 18 hours ago [-]
WebKit for Windows is not in a particularly well-maintained state, where WebKit-GTK (which is probably what Orion for Linux is built with) is in reasonable shape since it’s already used by GNOME Web (aka Epiphany). That might have something to do with it.
igrunert 13 hours ago [-]
The gap between the Windows and GTK ports is shrinking. Every JIT tier has been enabled for JSC on Windows[1], and libpas (the custom memory allocator) should get enabled soon.
The Windows port is moving from Cairo to Skia soon as well, matching the GTK port (though I think the focus is enabling the CPU renderer to start).
Webkit's CI (EWS) is running the layout tests on Windows, and running more tests on Windows is mostly a matter of funding the hardware.
There's a few things still disabled on the Windows port, some rough edges, and not a lot of production use (Bun and Playwright are the main users). It'd definitely be more work than Linux, but it's not as bad as you'd think.
That’s great to hear. The more web engines are practical to use across all major platforms the better.
bryanhogan 17 hours ago [-]
Great to see them leave the Apple cage.
But wondering why they would chose Linux before Windows and Android? Wouldn't these markets be much more relevant?
saagarjha 15 hours ago [-]
Easier to port to
bryanhogan 14 hours ago [-]
The easiest solution would be to not port at all. Curious under what considerations it was deemed worthwhile for them to commit to this.
trostaft 19 hours ago [-]
Very interested, their search tool has been good for me, just haven't been able to try the browser.
mary-ext 18 hours ago [-]
the decision to stick with WebKit for Linux is interesting, I haven't had a good time with WebKitGTK as it provides a subpar experience, so I wonder if Orion is going to be different in this regard
lawn 20 hours ago [-]
I'll chime in that Kagi has been an incredible improvement over Google and DuckDuckGo search wise.
I'm glad that we're seeing more alternatives in the web browser space and Orion being a paid option is believe it or not a selling point for them. I'm interested to see where it ends up.
realo 17 hours ago [-]
If anyone from the Kagi team is reading this:
Why does Orion on iOS not support Bluetooth Web BLE ?? That would really set it apart from Safari...
saagarjha 15 hours ago [-]
Don't work on Kagi, but WebKit on iOS doesn't support it.
realo 15 hours ago [-]
The library functions are there... Some browsers in the app store support it via native library functions (e.g. Webble browser).
drdaeman 19 hours ago [-]
I wonder if it is going to be proprietary-licensed (like their macOS version) or Free Software?
superkuh 20 hours ago [-]
I tried out paid kagi for a 3 months (even if you pay in bitcoin they still require your address). One thing you might want to know before going in is that Kagi does not return many search results. It never returns more than two short pages of results (~100). It is impossible to use Kagi like you'd use a search engine from 1995-2015 to 'surf' the web and find things by accident. That said, google only ever returns <400 results and Bing only ever returns <900. So there are no real options for search these days.
I thought paid Kagi would be a real search engine. But it's not. And Kagi's browser is closed source so that's a no go too.
yesfitz 20 hours ago [-]
I’m a happy Kagi customer, but that’s an interesting use case for a search engine that I hadn’t previously considered. Is there a “golden era” of search engines returning results for discovery?
I use forums, wikis, and content aggregators (e.g. Reddit) to discover related topics. If a search engine returns too many results, I refine my search terms.
alabastervlog 19 hours ago [-]
In my mind, the three eras of search engines are:
1) Before Google.
2) Google before ‘08.
3) Google after ‘08.
1 and 2 were both pretty good for just exploring.
wkat4242 19 hours ago [-]
I think Google after around 2022 is also another phase, where it became completely unusable.
It’s not “browse search results” but more “curated stumbleupon”.
You can also change your search lens from just generic “web” to “small web”, “forums”, “academic” etc or create your own lenses.
I don’t think these answer your particular browsing pattern, but I for one am happy that it doesn’t return hundreds of results. I feel like that is kind of the point, even. I’d rather get fewer, but better, results and have it just say “look buddy, there isn’t anything else”. Plus, I’m not stopped from just adding `!g` to the query and getting 1000 garbage Google results if I want.
8organicbits 19 hours ago [-]
Can you explain your use case? Looking at hundreds of results from a search query doesn't strike me as "finding things by accident", but I'm curious to know more.
dcminter 19 hours ago [-]
I used to do this too - it used to be that after you passed the first couple of pages of results from the major/mainstream sites the rest would be minor personal websites, forums, and similar. Find one good article on one of them and it was often worth adding to your bookmarks or RSS collection to ensure you saw the writer's later additions.
gazook89 13 hours ago [-]
Kagi has its “web” search, but you can switch to “small web” and get results like this. Or the “forums” lens if looking for user generated content.
wkat4242 19 hours ago [-]
They probably need your address for tax purposes. Especially the EU is really strict on charging us VAT for foreign purchases.
It does completely kill the anonymity though, I agree. It's strange that in this case they're worse than something like duck duck go. Because they don't require payment they simply have less data on you (especially confirmed data). I'm sure kagi protects it but the data you don't even have is even better protected.
colingauvin 19 hours ago [-]
You can detach searching from any association with your paid account:
I don't need to trust anyone not to share information they don't even have.
They should really allow anonymous payments like mullvad does. There you're just a random number and you can pay with crypto without any addresses.
lurk2 16 hours ago [-]
Even when Google was good I can't really recall ever browsing beyond 100 results unless I was looking for a post in a forum, so I don't know that this is really a knock against them given that their value proposition is that you pay them and they don't collect your data. I do find it surprising that so many people in this thread seem to be excited about Orion; I'm not interested in using anything proprietary to browse the web.
I've liked things about macOS Orion but some key extensions basically only work with Chromium browsers. That's not really on the Orion team, Chromium has a bunch of stuff neither WebKit nor Gecko support specifically around the file system and in-memory blob sizes
maxwellprice265 4 hours ago [-]
[dead]
Rendered at 14:50:16 GMT+0000 (UTC) with Wasmer Edge.
I'm a bit worried that Kagi might be over-extending here. Instead of focusing and capitalizing on search, they're expanding to the difficult business of browsers. I'm always hesitant when companies try to do everything everywhere all at once, since that might cause a loosening of focus on the original product.
I hope them all the best nonetheless - people actually paying for software is due a comeback!
It’s ironic that it is its own tight collusion, with the difference that you can use Orion just as well with any other search providers as with Kagi.
So yeah, it seems like a departure from search, until you consider that for the features that make Kagi a worthwhile search product (privacy, neutrality, etc), “you can’t get there from here” with the other browsers.
Everything seems to just work seamlessly. Searching in private windows works without any configuration or token juggling.
I have never tried the Orion browser or the extension because I don't understand the problem that they allegedly solve.
So now when I search in Safari, the browser says “DuckDuckGo Search” but when I hit return Kagi jumps in. I also had to turn off search suggestions because those (as far as I know) would still come from DDG.
iOS/iPhone has the majority mobile market share in many countries including the United States. If you’re unaware, Google is currently being sued by the US government for establishing a monopoly over search engine placement including payments to Apple and Mozilla to keep Google as the default search engine. So, with that context, can you honestly say there’s no collusion between search providers and browser vendors?
It's an example, but it's not an example that proves the point.
> iOS/iPhone has the majority mobile market share in many countries including the United States. If you’re unaware, Google is currently being sued by the US government for establishing a monopoly over search engine placement including payments to Apple and Mozilla to keep Google as the default search engine. So, with that context, can you honestly say there’s no collusion between search providers and browser vendors?
Yes, easily.
The comment was talking about depth of collusion in making it significantly not seamless. But even with Google pushing a default, it's a trivial switch on Android.
On top of that, Google pushing their search engine onto Android phones has nothing to do with "browser vendors". It's a different topic.
So I say Android is not an example, and desktop is fine, leaving the only example of problems as Apple. Even if I think that's collusion, just Apple doing a thing is not collusion over the general market of browser makers. But I'm also skeptical that it's collusion. Apple always offers limited choices and bad customizability.
If you’re not aware of the “collusion” you might just be asleep at the wheel. You may be right semantically, though: it might not really be collusion—it’s simply light of day bribery.
I didn't say there wasn't collusion of any kind. I said Google being the default on android is not collusion with browser vendors.
And on Windows, Bing is the default.
> And if you visit the internet’s home page on anything other than Chrome you get bombarded with popups compelling you to install Chrome.
Self-promotion is not collusion.
Also critical to my point is that collusion to set a mere default is not what the original comment was talking about. You don't need to switch your browser to "lay bare the depth" of a default. They were talking about something much stronger.
Bing is the only one you really get stuck with, and that only happens outside of the browser. You can change the search engine for searches started inside of Edge.
Bing is also not an example of collusion. It's Microsoft promoting Microsoft.
> I don’t really know what we’re arguing anymore.
Here is what I'm arguing: If you want to say there is a mixture of different types of collusion and monopolistic self-pushing connected to search engines, I agree with you. But the claim earlier was about a very specific type of [deep] collusion, that would make it difficult to change the search engine that a browser uses, that is easy to see when trying to use Kagi. But that difficulty only exists on iOS. It's not true in general. (And I'm not convinced that the specific issue on iOS is a collusion problem rather than an Apple-knows-best problem.)
I think it might have even just sync’d over from my desktop settings? I never even thought about it, it just worked.
Absolutely. Safari not offering any way to add Kagi without weird hacks or extensions is absurd.
I get the case for search engines paying browser vendors a cut for being the default, but still getting paid after the user has overridden that selection is already somewhat dubious, and not allowing the user to fully provide their own query URL at all should be illegal.
It's proprietary. There's no way of knowing that it's private.
Yes, I'm aware of bytecode analysis, but that's a slow difficult process, and for browsers, the release cycle is short enough that by the time you're done analyzing the current version, a new version is out, and it's significantly harder and less useful to diff a binary, so you end up having to basically start the analysis over for the new version. Unless there's something going on here that I don't know of, that's simply not a viable means of keeping track of browser security.
https://help.kagi.com/kagi/company/history.html
[1]: https://orionfeedback.org/d/6363-orion-for-linux
[2]: https://orionfeedback.org/d/6363-orion-for-linux/30
The closest extant option is something like GNOME Web (also based on WebKit like Orion) but the lack of extension support and poor performance makes it a non-starter.
As someone who already pays for Kagi search, Orion will definitely be on my radar. I'll gladly volunteer $5/mo if I can just copy-paste my extensions unchanged and keep browsing.
"Are there plans for a Windows/Linux/Android version of Orion?
We currently do not have the resources to hire a new team to do any of these platforms yet.
Since Orion is funded by its users only, it is entirely up to the number of subscribers and Orion+ sales we have that will enable funding a new team to make Orion for any new platform. And building a browser is not cheap, especially one on top of WebKit."
Interesting that they concluded Linux was the next most worthwhile one to target but I suppose is probably more popular with users attracted to Kagi/Orion.
They also don’t seem like they’re trying to go big, just stay profitable.
Note that if it this were true, Kagi brings features to the table that make it worth the price. For one, it allows you to prioritize/deprioritize sites, and it allows you to block sites from all search results.
Orion is closed source.
The summarizer lives at a different page, here: https://kagi.com/summarizer/
And each search result item had a menu that includes an option to summarize the page.
It does seem like their long tail of issues is going down - each time I check in, it is clearly improved. So fingers crossed it continues to get better ...
I'm still giving Orion a chance for now... I just installed a slightly older version that works.
[0] https://orionfeedback.org/d/10197-bitwarden-hangs-on-load
I'm in Europe. I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
Any good EU alternatives?
Qwant and Ecosia, two European search engines, announced on October 24, 2023, a partnership to develop a European search index to lessen their dependence on US tech giants Google and Microsoft. https://insidetelecom.com/qwant-and-ecosia-are-building-an-i...
For the OpenWebSearch.eu initiative, 14 renowned European research and computer centers from 7 countries have joined forces to develop an open European infrastructure for web search https://openwebsearch.eu/
However fwiw, Startpage is nice.
It’s hosted in Germany and uses the independent Brave search index.
There is a common initiative by ecosia and qwant to build their own index [0], which is hopeful though, and something to look forward to.
[0] https://blog.ecosia.org/eusp/
If Kagi is truly cool, by cool I am including opposition to current American policies, and you think they offer a good product, then you shouldn't fret about supporting them. If they aren't cool, then by all means look for alternatives.
It's worth pointing out that you're going to struggle with this, and it's because (as all software engineers know) Europe has never supported a strong tech/software developer friendly culture. To be clear: I am not saying there are not fantastic devs in Europe (in fact, most of the devs I respect the most are European), but the EU has always struggled to pay competitively and grow its local software community. In fact, all the amazing software engineers I know in Europe.. work for US companies, making US software products (and making US total comp).
Here's a quote of Alan Kay talking about this is in 1997
> [Dijkstra] once wrote a paper—of the kind that he liked to write a lot of—which had the title On the fact that the Atlantic has two sides. It was basically all about how different the approaches to computing science were in Europe, especially in Holland and in the United States. In the US, here, we were not mathematical enough, and gee, in Holland, if you're a full professor, you're actually appointed by the Queen, and there are many other uh important distinctions made between the two cultures. So, uhm, I wrote a rebuttal paper, just called On the fact that most of the software in the world is written on one side of the Atlantic.
The time to address this, unfortunately for Europe, is not today, but 30-40 years ago.
> In fact, all the amazing software engineers I know in Europe.. work for US companies, making US software products (and making US total comp).
What is an amazing software developer if it is not someone who delivers business value? Because there are a lot of software development companies in the Netherlands for instance, or teams part of companies, and they surely deliver business value or they wouldn't exist.
By now I would also bet that of the small subset of developers considering emigrating to the States, sure think they've now dodged a bullet.
Can you explain why? From privacy and free speech perspectives aren’t US services now better?
Kagi now probably has the best search privacy features in the world after recent upgrades with Privacy Pass and even a ToR endpoint.
buy-european-made.eu
Pretty sure that there is a similar trend in Canada or Mexico, for instance.
We should also mention VAT. The EU’s 21% VAT jacks up prices, a €100 item hitting €121 will slash demand. This provided around €1 trillion revenue for EU governments in 2024. While the US’s typical 7% sales tax keeps a $100 item at $107, hurting demand less, total about $457 billion in 2024. This gap makes US goods pricier in the EU (27.7% markup with tariffs) versus EU goods in the US (10.8% markup), acting like an extra trade wall for American exports, while the EU’s VAT refund on exports gives their firms a edge.
Notice we haven’t even mentioned defense spending yet …
It's just an handful of countries like USA and Malaysia that are the weird ones, and don't implement a VAT tax
They already have a lot of ways to avoid taxes, but at least with VAT they pay the same as everybody else. They are going to buy expensive food or drinks at restaurants and 8% (in my country) of that is going to be taxed. Someone more modest is going to eat at a less expensive place and is going to pay 8% on something less expensive.
I'm aware of the luxury tax but I don't think it's better than the VAT tax.
I'm not sure how that would change the incentive for European citizens to rely more on European products in the face of possible future tariffs.
As for privacy: American privacy laws are even more of a joke than the GDPR. The lack of privacy rights for non-American citizens is the main reason the GDPR bans storing PII in the US.
As for free speech: the kind of free speech American tech companies are offering right now is not something I'm very interested in. America ranking lower than my country in every freedom index I can find also doesn't help.
Furthermore, paying a browser that actively does business with Yandex doesn't sit well with me, even if it won't affect me directly. The comments the CEO made about not caring about "geopolitics" doesn't reassure me much, either.
In regards to privacy, the country is increasingly trying to pass age verification bills as a way to backdoor more surveillance into law while a billionaire is running around slurping up everyone's private data.
In regards to free speech, the President sues journalist he doesn't agree with, passed an executive order to target lawyers he doesn't like, and is trying to get a law passed that will allow him to further target people who try to hold him accountable.
To say the US is better on both privacy and free speech is either uninformed or delusional.
I am not sure exactly what are your motivations but if it is privacy and trying to fight some sort of tyranny, I am afraid this might be a bit naive and maybe counterproductive.
The EU is as much influenced by the interests of Big tech than the US. Maybe even more in a way. The regulations and fines you hear about are kayfabe.
It is looking more and more like the net of regulations the EU is rolling out is turning Europe into a digital Gulag.
Right now they only really met a resistance for that ChatControl one [0] but they have been trying for years over and over again, and will probably win at the end.
The irony is if you want and EU alternative you might need to defeat the EU first, who has been preventing the emergence of alternatives for decades now. Or just selfhost as much as possible at home for now.
- [0] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/
uBlock Origin support is at least partial because whenever I click an analytics-redirect link in my email and it opens in Orion, I get a uBlock “tracker blocked” page.
Text selection jumps all around even on hacker news (I say even because HN is pretty has pretty simple html\css\etc). Any web site with non-english letters and complex layot kills it.
- "We're thrilled to announce that development of the Orion Browser for Linux has officially started!"
- "Register here to receive news and early access opportunities throughout the development year: https://forms.kagi.com/?q=orion_linux_news "
https://bsky.app/profile/kagi.com/post/3ljqsgjmkpk2n
(I interpret that to mean there's a closed beta?)
On the other hand, it promises to be a simple yet usable (builtin adblock + privacy) browser. Ime, brave is probably the closest however it has a lot of nagging around their crypto and ads.
There are dozens of Firefox- and Chrome-based browsers, but nothing else. Wonder why?
1. https://blogs.igalia.com/jani/bringing-webkit-back-to-androi...
2. https://github.com/Igalia/wpe-android/releases/tag/v0.1.3
They have Kagi translate, they also mentioned building an email service. I like Kagi search because it works well. I actively avoid their other products because I want to encourage them to stay focused and make a good product.
If you have it installed and it appears to be working, it’s probably the default native ad blocker that’s doing the work.
https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-existent-...
I think failing loudly would be better for users.
Maybe the decision speaks to the distribution of Kagi users across operating systems.
The Windows port is moving from Cairo to Skia soon as well, matching the GTK port (though I think the focus is enabling the CPU renderer to start).
Webkit's CI (EWS) is running the layout tests on Windows, and running more tests on Windows is mostly a matter of funding the hardware.
There's a few things still disabled on the Windows port, some rough edges, and not a lot of production use (Bun and Playwright are the main users). It'd definitely be more work than Linux, but it's not as bad as you'd think.
[1] https://iangrunert.com/2024/10/07/every-jit-tier-enabled-jsc...
But wondering why they would chose Linux before Windows and Android? Wouldn't these markets be much more relevant?
I'm glad that we're seeing more alternatives in the web browser space and Orion being a paid option is believe it or not a selling point for them. I'm interested to see where it ends up.
Why does Orion on iOS not support Bluetooth Web BLE ?? That would really set it apart from Safari...
I thought paid Kagi would be a real search engine. But it's not. And Kagi's browser is closed source so that's a no go too.
I use forums, wikis, and content aggregators (e.g. Reddit) to discover related topics. If a search engine returns too many results, I refine my search terms.
1) Before Google.
2) Google before ‘08.
3) Google after ‘08.
1 and 2 were both pretty good for just exploring.
https://kagi.com/smallweb/
It’s not “browse search results” but more “curated stumbleupon”.
You can also change your search lens from just generic “web” to “small web”, “forums”, “academic” etc or create your own lenses.
I don’t think these answer your particular browsing pattern, but I for one am happy that it doesn’t return hundreds of results. I feel like that is kind of the point, even. I’d rather get fewer, but better, results and have it just say “look buddy, there isn’t anything else”. Plus, I’m not stopped from just adding `!g` to the query and getting 1000 garbage Google results if I want.
It does completely kill the anonymity though, I agree. It's strange that in this case they're worse than something like duck duck go. Because they don't require payment they simply have less data on you (especially confirmed data). I'm sure kagi protects it but the data you don't even have is even better protected.
https://help.kagi.com/kagi/privacy/privacy-pass.html
I don't need to trust anyone not to share information they don't even have.
They should really allow anonymous payments like mullvad does. There you're just a random number and you can pay with crypto without any addresses.