I wonder how many people have literally been injured or died due to this pursuit for better "design". And it applies not only to touch screen (which is a total madness), but to real buttons as well - those buttons need not only to be physical, but have different form/some tactile differentiation.
What's happening with touch screens is total mess due to car designers trying to circumvent regulations (e.g., can't have that screen in front of a driver, or projected over the windshield) - so they are forced to move it to a side, which makes operating it while driving more dangerous.
But even button's design is falling prey of it, with buttons hidden way below the top of the dashboard, made of the same size, etc. It takes forever to scan & find the right button (e.g. internal air) while driving.
And I don't see it as just some recent trend (although there's much more of it). Even 10-12 years ago, this way already a problem.
One example of stupidity: Toyota Sienna 2013 has brightness control for its media screen (which also shows back up camera) via a touch screen button. Turning brightness at night works ok - but then turning it back on during day light is impossible - nothing is visible on that dimmed screen!! Latest Toyota Sienna has all of the climate control buttons (8?) in 1 row, very low, of the same size, barely visible signs on them - recipe for disaster...
I wish these designers and execs would have their kids life depend on it - I wonder if that'd change their thinking...
fibonachos 12 hours ago [-]
My wife’s 2015 Honda has a similar setup for the climate controls. One morning the windshield fogged up after a few minutes of driving when the cabin was warming up on a cold day. Not being my daily driver, I had to look low on the dash to find the defogger button, while driving in the rain. Nothing bad happened, but I remember feeling a little helpless in the moment. That nothing went wrong was really just pure luck.
closewith 6 hours ago [-]
You could always have pulled over.
rnewme 1 hours ago [-]
Once I was driving on a highway, in the left lane, in heavy traffic, entering a tunnel at some 140kmh, when due to enormous temperature and humidity difference literally blanked out all my windows and windshield. The tunnel had no ventilation and was filled with fog as well. It was literally as if someone hit a switch that turned off my screen. I started braking, turned in emergency light and toggled windshield fan all in less than a second. You could hear other people's tires screeching around me as well. I was in many hard situations on road and in life, but this was blood chilling. I hate to think what would happen if I wasn't able to get my windshield clear again so fast. I drove blindly for 2-3 seconds in a tunnel at 140kmh mate. No pulling over, no stopping with hazards on since guy behind you probably can't see you either.
closewith 1 hours ago [-]
Surely you see the issue here. Slowing to a stop with your hazards is by far the safest option and you dismissed because of a lack of driver competence.
cafeinux 6 hours ago [-]
You still have to see where you're going to pull over, and it's not always possible.
therealpygon 1 minutes ago [-]
You could, and hear me out because I know it could be super difficult to do…move one arm a little bit and wipe away some of the fogging so you can see where you are going to pull over…
Why are people so exceptional lazy that they would put other people at risk while they wait for a machine to do something for them, rather than reaching up and wiping away some of the condensation so they can safely operate the vehicle? Are people really this astonishingly incompetent?
closewith 5 hours ago [-]
You can always slow to a stop with your hazards on.
I rail against touch and ambiguous controls in safety critical applications more than most, but continuing to drive when you can't see properly is akin to get-there-itis.
nosianu 5 hours ago [-]
> You can always slow to a stop with your hazards on.
With low visibility slowing down in the middle of the road is not save either though, given that those behind you don't expect it, and that few people keep sufficient distance. Same with standing on the side in such conditions.
In the described situation I think the best option is to be able and use the right buttons quickly, sticking to the original subject of the discussion. The option that would let you safely keep going with the flow is the best one I would say, under the given conditions.
Even if a million scenarios and alternatives can be thought of, what's the point of derailing a discussion focused on a particular subject? We only have a few hundred comments of room here, I think there is more value in keeping the focus.
tifik 4 hours ago [-]
The discussion isnt derailed, it branched off. The point is to bring up an adjacent point.
And while the ideal scenario is of course that no problem arises, and second being that the problem is swiftly and efficiently resolved.. given those scenarios do not occur, and you have to decide between "keep going without seeing the road" and "putting hazards on and slowly coming to a complete stop", the latter definitely seems more reasonable in every way.
Of course specific scenarios where stopping will be less safe can be thought up, but statistically speaking, I dont see how an uncontrolled multi-ton moving object would be more safe that a stationary one.
closewith 4 hours ago [-]
> In the described situation I think the best option is to be able and use the right buttons quickly, sticking to the original subject of the discussion.
Yes, obviously, but poorly designed or failed equipment does not absolve you of your responsibility to drive safely.
> Even if a million scenarios and alternatives can be thought of, what's the point of derailing a discussion focused on a particular subject?
The topic is road safety and the point is both pertinent and revealing. The attitude in your comment and others are highlighting basic failures in driver training, independent of the equipment design.
Honestly, I think you should reflect on your attitude here before you end up a road traffic statistic.
Brian_K_White 3 hours ago [-]
Nothing you've said is valid or solves the problem any better than what they originally said. The problem has already happened and remains a problem regardless what the driver attempts to do about it at that point.
You are already operating the vehicle in traffic in bad conditions for yourself and everyone else, and still need to be able to operate the vehicle and still need to be able to see no matter which of the possible reactions you believe is least-risk at that particular time.
Whether you judge that the least-risk response is to turn on hazards and slow down or even stop right in the road where other drivers who you can not see are not expecting it, whether you can find a place to pull over and see it clearly enough to be absolutely sure there is not a child standing there, or to make no changes to current behavior at all so that you are the most predictable to everyone else, you still need to be able to operate the vehicle and see the road and other vehicles in order to do any of those. None of your suggestions gets around that, even coming to a full stop with hazards on.
Your theory also depends on other drivers to see you and your hazards. Where is the hazard control? This whole discussion is about poor controls.
Even if they did exactly what you who were not there presumes to declare they should have done, it doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the problem or solve the problem or work around the problem.
closewith 2 hours ago [-]
It actually does solve the problem safely and effectively. The fact you don't recognise this is a driver training failure.
I mean this in the most charitable way possible - you should refrain from driving until you rectify this issue, either through self reflection or remedial training. Until then, you are a danger to yourself and others.
TuringNYC 3 hours ago [-]
>> Yes, obviously, but poorly designed or failed equipment does not absolve you of your responsibility to drive safely.
I agree with you on this -- but that is not how people behave. Just because people should behave that way, doesnt mean they do. People have a natural inclination to try and fix the problem by giving up a bit of attention -- that is bad for all of us who are affected by these decisions -- and this means -- fix the design.
SequoiaHope 1 hours ago [-]
If drivers feel compelled to take their eyes off the road for extended periods to locate critical controls, it doesn’t matter if they could have made other choices. The safe choice should be easy or it’s a bad user interface.
1 hours ago [-]
jajko 5 hours ago [-]
On highway, in dense traffic? Sure you can put the car in emergency lane, but that's a risky place to be increasing risk of accident on its own, plus traffic police comes immediately if they see you / are called for such car.
Another situation - narrow intercity winding roads, 0 room for safe stopping of car for next 2km. Again, asking for a crash especially in situation when your windshield fogs which is usually during heavier rain.
Yet another situation - driving in even semi-dense traffic in any bigger city. Again, no place to just stop and block others safely.
I could go on for a while. Not always the smartest move.
zauguin 4 hours ago [-]
I'm somewhat disturbed by the idea that anyone would think that you shouldn't stop when "driving in even semi-dense traffic in any bigger city" if you can't see. Of course you should slowly come to a halt and put warning slights on to give people time to react, but not coming to a stop in such a situation seems at the very least highly negligent.
Sure, stopping in the middle of the road will be annoying to other drivers, but it's generally preferred to annoy people over killing them.
tifik 4 hours ago [-]
Not always of course, but I dont understand this reasoning. For every example you give, one can make up a different one where stopping would yield a better outcome.
I do believe though that if we took literally all possible scenarios and weighed them by the probability of them occuring, the results would show that a stopped vehicle is safer than a moving vehicle whose driver can not see.
closewith 4 hours ago [-]
In all those cases, it is safer to come to a stop - an action advertised by your brake lights - than to continue on without proper visibility.
In fact, I feel confident in saying that based on this comment, you are an unsafe driver and should voluntarily undertake remedial training, as you are unfit to be on the road.
zelphirkalt 5 hours ago [-]
Sounds to me like Material design/theme in software UIs. Very flat, sometimes cannot see what is a button and very little feedback, compared to those Windows 98 style buttons, or default browser buttons.
peeters 7 hours ago [-]
> to this pursuit for better "design"
Quotes appropriate, because I don't believe this is about safety, usability, or even aesthetics. It's about reducing the number of parts on the vehicle, i.e. lowering cost. It's car manufacturers deliberately making driving less safe to save a few bucks.
yalok 6 hours ago [-]
No quotes, just my observation - that the buttons are more optimized for the good look (symmetrical, sleek) vs usable. Building a plastic molding form with some shape/tactile difference shouldn't be significantly more expensive.
Re Touch screen, I agree - that's pure cost cutting. But that's just crazy. I'm surprised regulators are not preventing it.
hulitu 5 hours ago [-]
> I'm surprised regulators are not preventing it.
Regulators are, from a long time, paid by car manufacturers.
globular-toast 6 hours ago [-]
Thank you. I think lots of people assume touch controls are for design, or to be cool, or maybe just "modern". It's just cheaper, though. That's why you see them on all generic Chinese made electronics (even stuff that could have no electronic component at all, like a fan).
SilasX 9 hours ago [-]
>I wonder how many people have literally been injured or died due to this pursuit for better "design".
One famous example is Anton Yelchin, who played Chekov in the new Star Trek movies. The new Jeep shifter design made it less obvious whether you put it in neutral or park, and so it rolled toward him when he got out and pinned him to death.
This is awful news to me. I've driven a wagoneer that had the spinning knob for the shifter, and yeah, I wasn't a fan.
germinalphrase 2 hours ago [-]
Green Room (2015). Yelchin was a talented guy and (would have) had a solid career. Patrick Stewart is also cast well against type in that flick.
mnahkies 1 days ago [-]
It's great to see this change in direction.
I had the opportunity to drive a Tesla recently, and I was pretty blown away by how hostile the ux was. Even the indicator stalk has no tactile feedback leading to me indicating left then right multiple times after completing a simple lane change (as I pushed it slightly too far for the lane change mode so it didn't shut off automatically). Don't get me started on things like the AC and window wipers being behind the touchscreen, it's like they designed it to require a copilot.
It's driver aid features also get easily tricked leading to random steering corrections and slamming on the brakes. I'd love to know if anyone's analyzed the rate of rear end collisions compared to older/simpler cars, as I suspect it could be statistically higher.
It was also fairly amusing parking it in the garage - it seemed to mistake our dog for a motorbike and the other vehicle as a truck with the 3 of us colliding, glad it didn't try and automatically phone in the "collisions"
anon373839 1 days ago [-]
Teslas are 100% about cost-cutting. Flimsy, cheap, uncomfortable - but they do make those goofy spaceship noises! The lack of normal knobs, buttons, and stalks is just more of the cost-cutting.
It baffles me that they were ever considered “luxury” cars except as to price.
mv4 14 hours ago [-]
I own a Tesla and I've never considered it a luxury car. It's a high-tech car.
11 hours ago [-]
toynbee_cunt 13 hours ago [-]
[dead]
DecentShoes 11 hours ago [-]
I love my Model 3 but the lack of a rain sensor is just dumb cost cutting
pests 10 hours ago [-]
I always joke about that to my buddy when I'm driving in his M3. Be the sunniest nicest day out, the wipers will randomly turn on going crazy.
tyfon 7 hours ago [-]
I call them sunwipers.
Funnily this happens only in my model 3, not my X (I bought them before Elon went crazy). Both have automatic wipers on.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 8 hours ago [-]
My gas car turns on the wipers sometimes when the sun shines on the sensor just right. Like a photic sneeze. Of course it cost about a quarter of a new Tesla
2 hours ago [-]
10 hours ago [-]
silon42 8 hours ago [-]
forget sensor, a normal wiper lever would do
karlgkk 8 hours ago [-]
Model S is a luxury car. Model 3 is a luxury car to people who think Hyundais are nice.
ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago [-]
Hyundai has come a long, long way, over the years. They are now quite nice. The Genesis boutique brand is excellent.
fransje26 3 hours ago [-]
> Model S is a luxury car
Nothing spells out "luxury" better than misadjusted panel gaps..
api 1 days ago [-]
Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest EVs. They were pioneers in this era. Then they started investing in weird niche vehicles like the Cybertruck and dubious AI stuff instead of improving their regular cars, and the rest of the auto industry caught up with EVs.
Not surprisingly, companies that have been making cars forever are pretty good at making cars. Cars have always been a very competitive market, so you didn't have the kind of absolute stagnation you see in some other industries. Tesla just gave them a kick in the butt to make electric cars.
anon373839 1 days ago [-]
> Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest EVs
That's true, and they are insanely fast. But I will never forget when the Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class. When I tried one out, my overwhelming first impression was: this is it? And that was 2012. And it's still basically the same car!
tw04 13 hours ago [-]
It’s actually gone backwards since then. They removed things like the rain sensor for the automatic wipers, and turn signal and drive stalks. To improve the car? Nope, to cut dollars off the cost of a car that can hit six figures in price.
amluto 11 hours ago [-]
I think the removal of the drive stalk added cost.
AIUI, it turns out that the ability to select drive vs reverse is considered safety critical, so it has to work even if the infotainment system is not operational. This involves something along the lines of a dual-port touch sensor so that an independent, higher-reliability system can detect the gesture to change direction, and the hardware for that is not free. And the “gear shift” stalk was simple and cheap.
I haven’t tried it in an appropriate model Tesla, but I suspect you can trigger an infotainment reboot using whatever the current button press combination is, and then, before it finishes rebooting, select drive or reverse by swiping the left edge of the screen, and it will work.
Score one for car regulations doing the right thing? Maybe, but this all misses the mark, because how many people will know to do the ridiculous swipe on an invisible target when the need to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle and their infotainment system isn’t working.
(I don’t know about newer Teslas, but infotainment glitches on older models are common.)
pests 10 hours ago [-]
I believe there are semi-hidden PRND buttons in the headliner behind/around the rear view mirror for the stalkless Tesla.
avalys 13 hours ago [-]
The interior of the Model S was, and remains, appallingly cheap. It felt like a 1990s Chrysler minivan with all the buttons removed.
laserlight 4 hours ago [-]
> Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class
That was Tesla's sales pitch. Model S was no competitor for Mercedes-Benz S-Class. It competed against the E-Class.
api 22 hours ago [-]
I've heard it described as the most advanced drive train in the world with the body of a 1990s Kia on top.
jjav 20 hours ago [-]
But a 1990s Kia had proper physical controls for everything.
genewitch 6 hours ago [-]
So kind of like the Mitsubishi Evo X?
The frame and body and interior was garbage. That drive train though.
dboreham 16 hours ago [-]
> Then they started...<doing stuff Elon thought was a good idea>
Success is self limiting. It makes people start to engage in magical thinking about their own abilities and vision.
jajko 5 hours ago [-]
Luxury? Where the people live? Luxury looks and feels and costs and drives differently.
Tesla is upper middle class (model S) or lower, just with potentially more horsepower in some models. It has great straight line performance and thats about it, but then ie dragsters should be in ultra-luxury class by that logic.
dzhiurgis 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
joshribakoff 16 hours ago [-]
I am lemoning my second Tesla in a couple hours. Part of the criteria was that they have attempted to fix rattles and squeaks multiple times and the issues keep returning and they keep causing additional issues when they attempt to repair the original issue.
The vehicle keeps also falling apart. The wheel covers keep falling off because the clips keep breaking, even though there has been no damage that should have caused it.
On the previous one they were about seven or eight repair attempts for the window failing to roll up so I was unable to secure the vehicle and they kept failing to provide loaners when it was in for service.
This is for the model X and model S, which is supposed to be their “luxury” vehicles
By the way, if you would like to lemon your Tesla, please read your purchase agreement for the email to send your request. You get back all of the interest, payments, tax, registration and everything.
raincole 15 hours ago [-]
What does "lemoning" mean?
t-writescode 15 hours ago [-]
Likely Lemon Law.
Lemon laws are laws that provide a remedy for purchasers of cars and other consumer goods in order to compensate for products that repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance. Although many types of products can be defective, the term "lemon" is mostly used to describe defective motor vehicles, such as cars, trucks, and motorcycles.
A comment replying to "Tesla is luxury" with "no it's not, mine keeps breaking" isn't unrelated. My 15-year-old Mercedes still looks brand new, luxury doesn't have a hard time keeping itself from falling apart.
kortilla 4 hours ago [-]
Luxury and durability are mostly independent.
dzhiurgis 7 hours ago [-]
How does interior quality and plastic firmness relate to a lemon? Does your car get totaled when there's imperfection in a cupholder? Are you people are out of your mind?
stavros 7 hours ago [-]
Man, please read the comment chain. "Tesla is premium" "actually it's shit, I got two bad ones" "completely unrelated post" "no it isn't".
At this point it feels like you're misunderstanding the chain on purpose.
bdangubic 17 hours ago [-]
I own two Teslas and they are great! But definitely not premium. you are paying for brand, they are “premium” only because people have been willing to pay high price for a brand. car itself is as far for premium as it gets compared to other actual premium cars in the same price range
mullingitover 11 hours ago [-]
My biggest 'wtf' moment was riding in back to back uber rides with a Model Y and then a Kia EV6.
First time riding in both. The road noise in the Y made it feel really cheap. Rough ride. Generally cheap feel.
The Kia was much smoother, quieter, obviously more premium materials.
It's really simple, Tesla people will tell you the car is built around a computer while other manufacturers stick a computer in their car. They're correct, and that's not a compliment for the Tesla because the ergonomics as well as the fit and finish were clearly an afterthought.
dzhiurgis 4 hours ago [-]
Bjorn's results say they have basically identical noise - down to 0.1 db on same tyres:
Kia EV6 GT Dry Michelin PS4S Summer 255/40-21 255/40-21 64,4 66,9 68,8 67,06
Tesla Model Y RWD Dry Michelin Pilot Sport EV Summer 255/40-20 255/40-20 64,5 67,1 68,7 67,09
People still choose to drive around in 20 or 30 year old Toyotas.
If price and fuel wasn't a consideration (diesel cars and fuel have crazy taxes around here) I'd end with Toyota 10/10 times.
amluto 11 hours ago [-]
In PG&E territory, an old Prius maybe gets 40mpg, and gas costs $4.90/gallon, giving $0.123/mi.
The current Model 3 seems to use about 25kWh/100mi. The off-peak rate (PG&E EV2-A) is 31c/kWh, giving $0.078/mi.
Tesla is winning, but not by a ton.
Supercharging seems to be a bit more expensive than home charging. Gasoline is less expensive outside California. Electricity is much less expensive outside of the investor-owned utility territories. Heck, Palo Alto (not exactly a low cost area) only charges $0.21c/kWh.
eitland 8 hours ago [-]
My previous car was diesel powered and used 0,6l/10 km.
Where I live in Norway, this morning diesel is around $1.85 / l (so around $7 / gallon) and that is on the cheaper side since the pandemic ended.
dzhiurgis 7 hours ago [-]
And some people choose amish buggy, doesn't mean it's shmik... And don't even get me on driving a petrol/diesel.
Lio 17 hours ago [-]
I’m sure not you’re really describing the premium segment.
I’ll take a Toyota Century over a Tesla any day of the week.
whateveracct 16 hours ago [-]
My 2008 Civic feels better made than the Teslas I've been in tbh.
whoknowsidont 12 hours ago [-]
>Stop spreading misinformation.
Facts are definitely treated as misinformation by a certain class of people these days, that's for sure.
forgetfreeman 16 hours ago [-]
Sit in a VW Golf for a minute and then tell me more about how premium Tesla is. It is bizarre how polished the ergonomics and interior fit and finish is, especially given the price.
beezlewax 17 hours ago [-]
It really isn't
Diti 16 hours ago [-]
It really is. I don’t know what kind of electric vehicles you have been using, but the Renault Zoe, Peugeot E-308, and Hyundai IONIQ I’ve been using before Teslas are a PAIN to use and recharge (especially the Peugeot). Tesla still (unfortunately) is years ahead because of the Superchargers. The competition needs to step up.
Retric 15 hours ago [-]
That’s not a luxury feature, any mid priced gas car is reliable and fine to drive and fill up. Luxury is stuff like built in refrigerator, perfume packages, seat massager, power operated rear seats, etc that are a step up from the basics functionality of a car.
The most obvious example is they have few ways to customize the look of your vehicle. A model S has what 7 colors and 2 kinds of wheels vs 2025 EQS 450 with 18 colors and 6 wheels to choose from. The Bens then has 23 Upholstery options and 4 independent trims and that’s before all the odd option packages.
Tesla used to operate an exclusive charging network which was a premium feature, but they opened that up to other manufacturers.
stavros 15 hours ago [-]
I drive a BYD. Maybe the EU forced all cars to have the same charger, but I haven't seen a charger yet I didn't manage to charge at.
tolien 14 hours ago [-]
> Maybe the EU forced all cars to have the same charger
CCS2/Type-2 were adopted as EU standards with enforcement to start this year, although it sounds like it's more of a "the charger must have this, but can have others".
kube-system 11 hours ago [-]
> Sit in a Toyota and you’ll understand what is cheap.
You clearly haven't sat in a loaded '25 Camry.
12 hours ago [-]
msy 16 hours ago [-]
I mean the price is but the fit and finish is offensively bad for the money vs a BMW/Merc/Lexus/Volvo.
al_borland 1 days ago [-]
This is one of the main reasons I don't think I'd buy a Tesla. Even the car I have now, I bought at the end of a model year, before a major redesign, because a lot of tactile controls were going away.
I really dislike using a touch screen while driving, as it makes me take my eyes off the road more than I'd like. I also just like how physical controls feel and make more sense. I was gifted the book, The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman, back in college and it really stuck with me how unintuitive many physical controls are in cars, as well as poorly designed doors on/in buildings (Norman doors as they are often called, in honor of the book).
_huayra_ 9 hours ago [-]
I remember reading that book when it clicked how frustrating the doors at my grad school uni could be: they had what is clearly a "pull" handle on both sides, but it only opened one way. They just added signs that said "Poussez" (push in French) on the push side because clearly no one thought about the design before installing it! It's unbelievable in the decades since that building my office was in was built, no one thought "hey let's put plates on this side so you CAN'T pull".
andrepd 2 hours ago [-]
I've heard it phrased like this: your door has an UX so bad that it needs an instruction manual (even if 1 word long).
sejje 10 hours ago [-]
I haven't read it yet, but I see this book recommended all the time on here, so I snatched it at a thrift store the other day for $0.25.
fyi, it’s a myth that you must use the screen to control things.
dhosek 13 hours ago [-]
I got a ride on Lyft a few weeks ago where the driver had a Tesla and I had a hell of a time just figuring out how to open the door to get in.
cafeinux 6 hours ago [-]
Am I the only one abashed by the fact that the reverse engine trigger is a slider on the touch screen? That's probably the last control I would have thought about putting on the touch screen.
vanviegen 37 seconds ago [-]
It's a control you only need when the car is turned on and standing still. The rest of the time it's just taking up space/material/attention. Sounds pretty suitable for a touch screen to me, though I'd probably be mystified for some time stepping into an unfamiliar car that does this.
You never need to touch the AC controls when driving thanks to auto mode. In the worst case you can use voice control, which you can again trigger from a physical control.
The 3D visualization is completely separate from the code that actually runs FSD, auto park, and other driver assist features, so just because it shows something wonky like a motorbike doesn't mean that it's what the car "thinks" it is.
andrewaylett 1 hours ago [-]
Go for "rarely" and I'll agree, but the number of people who don't understand how thermostats work and adjust the temperature to overshoot is really annoying :(.
I have physical buttons for changing the temperature, driver's side and passenger's side, and they don't get used even one in three times we get into the car -- but I'm still glad for the physical controls.
ForTheKidz 1 days ago [-]
For those of us who don't own a tesla, what on earth is "auto mode"?
porphyra 1 days ago [-]
You set the temperature and the hvac adjusts the fan speed and turns on the air conditioner or heating as needed.
Honestly, after setting my car to my preferred temperature months ago, I never had to touch the hvac ever since. No idea why people keep wanting to fiddle with theirs.
danielscrubs 4 hours ago [-]
Because sometimes you have a down jacket on and sometimes a t-shirt depending on the wildly changing weather.
I think some people would do well travelling a tid bit more.
AngryData 1 days ago [-]
That is one of my most hated features of modern cars. People don't feel hot or cold based just on ambient temperature, and everything with auto controls makes "blow hot air" far more complicated than just turning a knob.
kube-system 11 hours ago [-]
Modern cars? My Honda did this in the 90s. It's a thermostat. The technology has existed for over a century.
> People don't feel hot or cold based just on ambient temperature
This is well known, and it is why sun-load sensors have been commonplace in cars for decades.
Automotive engineering is quite mature.
dzhiurgis 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 8 hours ago [-]
Mine bottoms out at 65, but sometimes I'm hot and want it colder than whatever it thinks 65 is. It's pretty frustrating. Then it turns on the recirculate, which is not what I wanted. I don't understand why. Maybe the manual says
consp 7 hours ago [-]
It turns on recirculation since you want it cold. There is only so much cooling the airco pump can do and pushing in hot outside air does not cool it further. If you want it cold it needs to get cooler air to do so and that is the air previously cooled. What you want is a bigger heat exchanger and pump. Invest in that if you want cooler air.
AngryData 17 hours ago [-]
It hasn't been that easy in any car ive used. Maybe yours is different, but it is far from average.
rad_gruchalski 16 hours ago [-]
Because some of us live in a climate where we have 0 Celsius in the morning and 20 Celsius at 2pm.
stavros 15 hours ago [-]
It doesn't matter, auto mode does the right thing. My BYD Seal has the same, and it's actually pretty good. I can't say it's perfect, sometimes it'll blow cold air when the car is hot but I'm not that hot, but I've never really had to touch it beyond setting it to 21 C when I got the car.
rad_gruchalski 14 hours ago [-]
It's good it works for you. But it certainly does matter, and no, it doesn't always work. Like with anything on the internet, though: my experience vs your experience.
Never got in the car having one layer too many and having to turn down the temp? Or the other way around: not enough layers on and realise 10 minutes into the drive that it’s a bit chilly? Is your preferred temperature the same as the one of you passenger? Or you get in the car from a massive rain and you need to blast that aircon and bump the temp to deal with humidity completely obstructing the windshield?
stavros 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah but there are buttons for those things. My point was that the external temperature doesn't matter, not that your circumstances don't.
seanmcdirmid 11 hours ago [-]
If your car has crappy thermostat control, then how does that universally apply to other cars?
My thermostat just works. I don’t live in an extreme climate, so layering isn’t a thing. The car has a button specifically for defogging your windshield, so that is treated separately from climate control. You can hit max if you want drastic temperature change, but it’s a heat pump so thermostat is the only way to go really.
rad_gruchalski 11 hours ago [-]
> I don’t live in an extreme climate, so layering isn’t a thing.
See, you don’t. It’s okay.
“It barely ever rains in California. I don’t understand why we need wipers. And when it rains once in 10 years, I can stop… I don’t understand why everyone cannot just stop. Why do we spend money on those little engines and wipers.”
seb1204 13 hours ago [-]
Yes, so in the morning the auto will heat your windows, turn on your seat and steering wheel heating and make it warm to your set temperature, then dial it down to keep the temp. When warmed it will cool as needed. This is not new or Tesla specific.
rad_gruchalski 11 hours ago [-]
And maybe it will work. Thanks! But maybe, you know, sometimes I just want to knock it off a notch while driving. I must be so complicated… why would I want to regulate temperature manually. Or change some other obscure setting a genius from California never considered to be useful because “it works in my climate”.
By the way… there’s nothing preventing auto aircon and having a manual dial to change the setting rather than through a touchscreen. It safer. You know, in case if you have to. Which you don’t have to, apparently. That’s cool.
cpursley 1 days ago [-]
Ah, so just as terrible as auto mode home thermostats. I miss the days of simple rotary dials where you twist to the temp you want right now then forget.
cwalv 15 hours ago [-]
Setting the desired temp is 'auto mode'
seb1204 13 hours ago [-]
AC auto mode is not a Tesla special thing. Most car AC have had this setting or button for many years. E.g. a 2011 Ford Territory has it.
The AC auto button takes the needed action to get to the temperature you set. In On Tesla this was mostly set and forget.
amluto 11 hours ago [-]
Lexus has had this since 1991 or earlier. Except Lexus also had actual dedicated buttons, because sometimes you want to tweak it (due to sunlight or whatever clothing you were wearing or your mood).
neogodless 1 days ago [-]
The car knows better than you what you want your climate settings to be.
Hamuko 15 hours ago [-]
>You never need to touch the AC controls when driving thanks to auto mode.
Does it also do seat heating/cooling automatically?
>In the worst case you can use voice control, which you can again trigger from a physical control.
Does it understand my accent or do I need to learn to talk like an American?
seb1204 13 hours ago [-]
Yes, you can control the seat heating from the voice control.
If you have seat heating on, on a regular basis the car profile also remembers.
Hamuko 7 hours ago [-]
That is definitely not what I asked.
Yhippa 9 hours ago [-]
Is it just me, or is it really annoying to have to move your eyes down and to the right to see your speed? I assume people just get used to it over time.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 8 hours ago [-]
I'd really dig a heads-up laser display in cars. I should always feel like I'm piloting a fighter jet, even the artificial horizon and ammo count should be in there
blackeyeblitzar 13 hours ago [-]
> It's driver aid features also get easily tricked leading to random steering corrections and slamming on the brakes.
I have the opposite experience. My friends Teslas blow me away with their drivers assistance stuff. But the German and Japanese cars I’ve driven - absolute garbage, bordering on deadly. Random braking, not braking even with traffic stopped in front, aggressive collision prevention in places like parking lots, suddenly losing recognition of lanes, and other things. I believe these companies outsource the high tech stuff - not sure to whom - but I suspect they aren’t a tech company.
dzhiurgis 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
seb1204 13 hours ago [-]
I second this.
The context sensitive buttons on the Tesla steering wheel are great.
brianpan 10 hours ago [-]
I have never thought about the steering wheel buttons on my Tesla as conveniently context sensitive.
One person's "context sensitive" is another person's "mode confusion".
What? The benefit of CarPlay is that I can use my map app of choice. Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, whatever. In 5 years of daily driving I rarely used Tesla’s maps and opted for my phone connected via Bluetooth.
dzhiurgis 7 hours ago [-]
Any map without easy pinch and zoom is garbage. IDK perhaps you haven't used Tesla, but carplay just is incredibly inferior. I feel like I'm arguing about iPhone vs Nokia/Sybian in 2008.
genewitch 6 hours ago [-]
I have a 2023 Subaru and a 2013 Lexus. The Lexus has built-in mapping in GPS. The Subaru does not. It uses CarPlay or Android Auto.
The difference between changing to a different input source or changing a track or adjusting the audio settings between the two is night and day. I don't have to have my phone plugged into a USB port, which is flaky. The Lexus automatically goes back to the map after a few seconds.
I don't understand the appeal of having your car screen be a dumb terminal for your phone. Maybe it's better if you use Spotify or Apple Music or something, I don't know.
lotsofpulp 4 hours ago [-]
Same UI across all cars and one less thing of business creating an avenue / exit for your data.
I get into a rental car, I connect my iPhone and use CarPlay, I don’t have to worry about leaving my contacts data behind or anything else, and I am already familiar with the UX.
That is why Tesla and Rivian and GM don’t offer CarPlay, even though it is free and easy to implement. They don’t want people to be able to easily switch cars, they don’t want to just be a fungible appliance.
But as a consumer, I do want them to be a fungible appliance.
6 hours ago [-]
lotsofpulp 1 days ago [-]
I drive a Model Y almost every day, and I don’t feel inconvenienced by any of the digital controls, except the lack of volume knob if you have a passenger and they want to control the volume. I simply don’t need to adjust anything except music.
And lack of CarPlay, especially due to how convenient SharePlay is with other car passengers.
Autopilot has also been sufficiently good for the price at which the car is sold at. At $40k, I did not find a competitor with a better version of lane assist.
tapoxi 1 days ago [-]
I have an ID4 around that price, it keeps the lane and has a lane change assist. Is there any special sauce to autopilot?
seb1204 12 hours ago [-]
Even a current Toyota Corolla has lane assistance but turning it on, settings etc are just better at the Tesla model 3 I drive. Lane keeping is good, haptic and audio feedback are good.
The Toyota has haptic steering wheel feedback that I have not figured out yet, it steers but also leaves the lane. The Toyota chirms/acoustic sounds appear to me not used consistently across different functions, sound too similar or not warning enough. Admittedly this can all be personal choice and getting used to.
blackeyeblitzar 13 hours ago [-]
I would be shocked if ID4 had comparable driver assistance features. Even Audis are pretty shaky and unreliable. Tesla’s seem to be a few generations ahead
lotsofpulp 1 days ago [-]
ID4 was at least $10k more expensive in Oct 2024, with worse driving performance.
korisnik 1 days ago [-]
ID4's price seems to be $42k in the US? How much is the Model Y? Or did ID4's price decrease to $42k recently?
lotsofpulp 1 days ago [-]
They added a new tier and dropped some and increased some.
I was comparing a 3 row model Y AWD with tow hitch to AWD Pro ID.4 and ID.4 was coming in close to $50k, both with the federal tax credit. And the ID.4 lacked the 3rd row seating. I am also biased against European vehicles because I assume they will be more maintenance/expensive. I had a bunch of people recommend Model Y to me, and I trusted Tesla's electric vehicle making experience more than VW.
speedgoose 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
nixass 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
lotsofpulp 1 days ago [-]
I will be the first to say Elon is a Nazi and shouldn’t be in a leadership position.
But it’s crazy to claim Model 3 and Y are not competitively priced products that are usable for many, many people.
And I will also say I would not currently pay extra for a high end Tesla. But on the cheap end, and with the far superior buying experience without a stealership in the middle, it is welcome competition to the incumbent automakers.
DecentShoes 11 hours ago [-]
What's your evidence that he's a nazi? Waving at a crowd doesn't count btw.
dangus 11 hours ago [-]
Oh it’s waving?
You should upload a video of yourself doing it. Do it right now if it’s not a Nazi salute.
I’ll wait for your upload.
snotrockets 15 hours ago [-]
Hyundai and Kias have good ADAS, and can be had for less then a Tesla.
whoitwas 1 days ago [-]
Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat? I feel like you're being dishonest or just accustomed to the hostility.
f001 1 days ago [-]
Or live somewhere with no weather and moderate temperatures so no need for any of them minus the turn signals. It’s my pet theory of why tesla’s auto wiper setting is so bad: they’re located somewhere without rain/snow or without varying amounts of rain/snow.
dangus 9 hours ago [-]
How many more excuses for an incomplete vehicle can we make for this company?
Lucid, Rivian, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and BMW all have design studios in California. They don’t all have this problem.
Do we really think that Tesla engineers and product managers have never seen rain or snow before? And if so what kind of lame excuse is that?
Aren’t some of Tesla’s biggest markets in cold weather climates? Places like Canada, New England, Scandinavia, Germany, and China (Beijing).
cwalv 15 hours ago [-]
Depending on the model year, it may have a stalk for turn signals. The same stalk has a button on the end to trigger the wipers (rarely needed because they're auto-sensing), and then wiper speed/mode can be adjusted with the dials on the steering wheel. Heat likewise has an 'auto' mode that does what you'd expect.
I have a Model Y and a Toyota Highlander (so not just accustomed to the hostility), and I prefer the hands-off approach in the Tesla. No reason to lie.
yurishimo 1 days ago [-]
If they live in SoCal, 2/3 you listed might not be relevant. Paired with the battery degradation in cold climates…
I also don’t see much reason to buy a Tesla in 2025. There are better quality interiors for less money. The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!) and that is only relevant on a racetrack to push the car to it’s limits. Any normal EV is plenty quick for daily driving.
csa 24 hours ago [-]
> The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!)
Tesla base (no extra cost) acceleration is really good for anyone but speed junkies. I’ve had plenty of people (non-gear heads, non-speed junkies) white knuckle when I showed them what my model y is capable of.
The best part is that the acceleration is punchy all the way from 0 to about 105-110mph.
Other than that, I think the “religious wars” over Teslas give folks a warped view of reality. My comments to anyone who is thinking of getting one:
- Test drive one for yourself — this will be the most telling. Sometimes the showroom will let you borrow one over night. I knew I was getting mine after about 2 minutes of a test drive.
- Learn about the controls. Reading the manual helps when you get one… there are tons of cool, functional features.
- Try to go in with an open-but-critical mind. If you test drive with an overly negative disposition, you will almost certainly hate it. If you go in with an overly positive disposition, you will be blind to potential faults (e.g., for me, a yoke steering wheel that some models have is a no-go).
Note that refreshed model y is coming out in May or so, and it seems like the options they chose are fairly optimized.
seb1204 12 hours ago [-]
Fully agree with you, model 3 driver myself.
sz4kerto 1 days ago [-]
I've looked around (Europe), and there's nothing comparable at the price, except maybe Ioniq (but I didn't like the ergonomics, not saying it's objectively bad, just didn't fit me). Kia is way more expensive, Volkswagen is way more expensive at the same trim level, etc.
stavros 15 hours ago [-]
The BYD Seal has leaps and bounds better interior (and overall design) for roughly the same price as a Tesla.
csa 24 hours ago [-]
> Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat?
On my model y and (I think) the new model y releasing in May:
1. Physical controls (stalk button and scroll wheel)
2. Stalk
3. Voice or top level of screen, although the auto-temp is good for me 99% of the time
The extent to which some folks fixate on these issues (at least for the model y) makes me think “religious war” or “neurodivergent”. It’s unnecessary fear-mongering.
rurp 12 hours ago [-]
I've driven several Teslas and all were a terrible experience largely for this reason, basic controls are often absurdly clunky or hard to find. That's nice that they finally fixing some of these mistakes after years of complaints, but I'm very skeptical of a company that so often goes out of its way to create problems in order to be cheap and novel.
I've been hearing for years from Tesla fans about how perfectly amazing the cars are but I doubt they will suddenly be right after yet another redesign.
wisty 13 hours ago [-]
Nah, the religious war people will complain about Elon, and maybe vague accusations of poor general quality (not untrue but no-one cars about the door gap, poor tolerances are only an issue in the drivetrain, and Tesla's drive train is inherently very good even if they don't have late 90s Toyota levels of quality control).
Many people just hate touch screen controls. Maybe that is kind of a religious war with car enthusiasts, like auto vs manual. But a lack physical controls are a huge deal for some people. It's like if a dev tool doesn't have a cli.
I'm not even a car enthusiast and I refuse to get a car without decent physical controls.
Animats 15 hours ago [-]
From the article: "five most important functions – the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".
Interesting choices. None of those are driving controls.
Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks. What about cruise control and related functions?
Symbiote 6 hours ago [-]
Hazard lights absolutely are driving controls in some countries. I'd argue all countries.
If you must stop suddenly on a motorway, the hazard lights give additional warning to following vehicles. Switch them on as soon as possible. This is especially important in low visibility or at night.
Fans are also essential. You obviously don't live in a climate where the windscreen can fog up unexpectedly.
csa 14 hours ago [-]
On Model Y:
> the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".
Volume - scroll wheel
Heating - voice or screen, screen can be top screen for most functions (it’s editable for most-used functions)
Fans - same as heating, adjusting direction is top screen
Hazards - physical button near rear view mirror
> Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks.
Lights - stalk
Wipers - stalk and scroll wheel
> What about cruise control and related functions?
Autopilot (adaptive cruise control with lane assist) - right stalk and scroll wheel
Note: Article isn’t opening for me (hug of death), so I can’t refer to it.
Liftyee 14 hours ago [-]
They mentioned returning to physical buttons on the steering wheel as well. Past VW models (eg. Golf Mk7) have the cruise control button on the steering wheel. I read "five most important functions" as relative to those you would usually find on a centre console, not for overall driving.
lotsofpulp 1 days ago [-]
Wipers and turn signals are physical controls, I don’t find them much different than any other car.
I haven’t had to change heat/cool settings, I have it set to 70F and I haven’t had to adjust it.
whoitwas 1 days ago [-]
See. I'm a hacker. I need to control things. I bought the car and want access to it.
dzhiurgis 19 hours ago [-]
There’s an API and even third party buttons.
I don’t think there’s any other modern car getting so much scrutiny. Ironically it is making it so much better than competitors they basically have no chance to catch up.
whoitwas 13 hours ago [-]
I think you're describing Tesla, I have no idea lacking context. You couldn't pay me to drive Tesla at this point.
dzhiurgis 19 hours ago [-]
You are severely misinformed. Heat is a finger flick away. Rest are physical controls.
porphyra 1 days ago [-]
Honestly, it seems like people who clamor for physical controls are a vocal minority --- Teslas sell very well [0] and owner satisfaction is very high [1] despite the loud complaints from non-Tesla drivers online. It seems most people who actually drive Teslas are happy with them, and even controversial things like steering buttons take 5 minutes to get used to.
The study was debunked by a Tesla exec posting on X and reposted on Reddit. Excuse me if I view that with a very healthy amount of skepticism.
concordDance 4 hours ago [-]
I'd happily wager $100 that in a couple of years time we'll have the data to conclude that Model Ys were not 3x more lethally dangerous than average.
Would you take that bet?
porphyra 1 days ago [-]
The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles traveled and why should he lie about something like that?
And just from visual inspection, it is evident that there are numerous surprises with the iSeeCars study that are difficult to explain. For example, why is there such a huge difference between Model 3 and Y fatality rates even though the cars are similar in most respects?
Another thing to note is that the number of fatalities is only a handful, often under 10 in a year. The standard deviation of the Poisson distribution would already give error bars of 30% at least, making direct comparisons between models meaningless.
Finally, if you read the accident reports, most of the fatalities are head on collisions with drunk drivers and not wearing seatbelts. Having physical controls for hvac or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with it.
kadoban 24 hours ago [-]
> The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles traveled and why should he lie about something like that?
Because money?
forgetfreeman 16 hours ago [-]
> why should he lie about something like that?
Nobody's that naive.
porphyra 16 hours ago [-]
People are naive to trust the obviously wrong numbers from the iSeeCars study though.
nixass 1 days ago [-]
> Teslas sell very well
Someone's been sleeping for last 12 months
stfp 1 days ago [-]
Do we believe that “people buy them and they like them” should be the end-all argument to judge everything? I think it’s a datapoint but it doesn’t mean that the thing is good for society or people themselves.
Like 40% of people used to smoke. 40% of people are obese today. I’m not comparing these things to teslas in terms of harm (though funding musk is societal harm) but they prove that consumers can make very very bad choices and IMO do all the time
The vocal minority acts as a valid canary, probably most of the time.
greengreengrass 6 hours ago [-]
Teslas have a large driver base (note, likely doesn't apply to this forum) who don't know good engineering or design when they see it. They confuse "I spent good money on this" with "this is a good product".
Sorry, we all have our opinions and perspective, but money isn't the only value judgement.
I want my speedo in my easy line of vision on any vehicle I drive. I want to be able to demist my windscreen by reaching for a button I can find without taking my eyes off the road.
jjcob 16 hours ago [-]
People buy them and might still hate the touch screen. I know I hate my car's touch screen.
Just because people buy something doesn't mean they love every aspect of it.
mmcclure 16 hours ago [-]
I overall liked our Model Y, but the infotainment/touch screen situation was my biggest complaint.
We recently switched to an ID Buzz because our family outgrew the Y. The interior is a huge improvement over the Y (which, fair, it is a more expensive vehicle) and CarPlay is just objectively better than Tesla’s infotainment, but the rest of the software is pretty meh. I really miss a lot of little things like phone keys and a built in dash cam, though.
42lux 1 days ago [-]
Citation needed.
seb1204 13 hours ago [-]
I don't know what you are on about but I put it down to being unfamiliar with the car.
I've driven a Tesla model 3 for 3 years and the context sensitive buttons in the steering wheel are too notch.
Want to change the windscreen wiper speed, press button on the left lever, roll the wheel.
I have driven Hyundai, BYD, Nissan, Toyota and Xpeng cars recently, all new models and all have buttons and dials overload all dialled to the 'auto' setting. What's the point.
I'm all for sensible buttons but they need to work within the car over all UI.
A Toyota Corolla has 10! Buttons in each side of the steering wheel. I need to take my eyes of the road to get the right one.
The one thing that I think should be improved in all cars is that I want to use the AC auto settings but still have the air come out of the bottom vents and not into my face only.
rsync 10 hours ago [-]
Good design doesn’t need explanations or instructions.
A well designed user interface for an automobile should be discoverable and intuitive for anyone that’s driven a car previously.
somenameforme 8 hours ago [-]
Let's say I don't agree (and indeed I don't) - why?
My argument would be that 'tools' should be designed solely with the purpose of enabling them to work in the most effective way possible. That is often not immediately intuitive at all. Go open up e.g. Unreal Engine and you're going to struggle to do literally anything. Maybe after an hour you might figure out how to put a square on the map. The same is true of something like Maya or any other really powerful tool.
Obviously things should not be unnecessarily hostile, but it often simply turns out that there are 'revolutionary' ways to do things that weren't really done in the past, and so somebody coming from that past will often find themselves out of their domain, at least for a few moments until they learn and/or have things explained.
otterley 6 hours ago [-]
We’ve had cars for over a hundred years. Go drive a 1990s-era car and you’ll see how intuitive and tactile the controls are. Everything added since then are basically frills and conveniences.
A car is not a 3D modeling or game world building system. They’re functionally much simpler and don’t really benefit from added control complexity.
somenameforme 5 hours ago [-]
What he's arguing for is more complexity for sake of 'intuitiveness.' A zillion buttons for every possible action is far more intuitive than knowing you need to interact with this knob or that in this way or that, but it's certainly not less complex. It's akin to when Microsoft decided to adopt the ribbon styling for various software they develop where now the UI is cluttered with a zillion scarcely decipherable icons piled into layers upon layers of tabs.
Kwpolska 3 hours ago [-]
A zillion buttons aren’t really necessary in cars. Niche functions you use once in a blue moon can stay on screens. But the basic functions of a car, like turning signals, lights, or gear shifting, require tactile, obvious, well-known interfaces. I was taught to drive on a Toyota, and my dad’s car at that time was a Ford. I did not need to re-learn how to control the basic functions of the car; even though there were some differences as to where some things are located, the controls are immediately obvious. If I get a rental Kia or Volkswagen or Nissan, I’ll be able to immediately drive it even if I’ve never driven one. But if I get a rental stalkless stickless Tesla, I’d be completely lost and need extra training.
SlightlyLeftPad 9 hours ago [-]
I think I agree although, great design also pushes things forward in a thoughtful and intuitive way.
ksec 3 hours ago [-]
>Brand's design chief commits to "never" repeating the "mistake" of relegating essential controls to touchscreens
I could accept that to never repeat the "mistake" as an apology from VW.
But what about those who were supportive of it? We could go back to HN / Twitter history and read more than half of comments at the time thinks physical buttons are old and dump, Tesla has the future done right. That was in the mid 2010s.
Every single time those loud and hype constantly and consistently have it wrong. And every single time, like a PR machine they would go and hype the next wrong thing. But no one would hold them accountable. And the cycle repeats.
Because of that we have suffer from absolute crap over the past 10 years from Car manufacturers. We are lucky a few Japanese Cars manufacture hasn't caught the hype and stood ground. Thank You Mazda.
BoingBoomTschak 3 hours ago [-]
This.
laughs in Mazda
walterbell 3 hours ago [-]
Experimental control.
darthrupert 3 hours ago [-]
If what you are saying wpuld be true, Tesla drivers who also have another car wouldn't have 50% lower chance of getting into an accident in their Teslas.
So we can conclude you are saying is not true at least as absolutely as you claim. Touch screen interfaces are not fundamentally less safe.
TylerE 3 hours ago [-]
Because of course there aren't any other features of a Tesla that could possibly effect the accident rate.
darthrupert 1 hours ago [-]
This supports my point: even if the interface would be unsafe (which there is no reason to believe), the effect would be negligible.
sschueller 1 days ago [-]
This whole thing started with Tesla. Re-inventing the wheel because they think they know better. Musk's MO.
Other car makers only see the initial sales and jump on the wagon to copy and undo what was learned over many years to be safer only to then creep back many years later.
Same thing with Apple and removing the ESC key in favor of the touch bar or only having USB-C ports on a power user laptop with video over USB-C still being uncommon in conference rooms.
So much wasted time and resources.
Soon we will have removable batteries in phones and there will be people that have never seen this before...
At least no one died not being able to plug in their laptop in a conference room but someone probably did die operating the AC and hitting a deer because they had to look down.
boneitis 1 days ago [-]
I don't have much experience with non-tactile driving HUDs, but what always gets me is how, with every major version of Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as they get buried deeper into submenus, calling for ever more amounts of your sensory bandwidth.
These workflows, from quickly adjusting lcd brightness or toggling bluetooth to utilizing functionality in the Maps app, have devolved from almost-total muscle memory with one or two taps to multiple times that and all over the place on the smartphone display.
People are obviously going to use their phones and heavily navigate with Maps while driving, no matter how much PSAs and campaigning happen. It's sort of like the developers are causing car accidents in the name of shipping off their users' engagement metrics back to the mothership.
pndy 3 hours ago [-]
> (...) with every major version of Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as they get buried deeper into submenus
The one thing that struck me configuring my spare Samsung first time was this approach of hiding setting under sub-screens. For example how you can handle Wifi in One UI: you go to settings, in connections section you have Wifi entry with switcher. An entry that look like static combines 2 options. Tapping on text opens sub-screen with another on/off toggle and advanced setting hidden under three-dotted menu. Then, once you connect to a network editing its settings doesn't open by tapping on network name but by sprocket on right. And if you want to change ip, dns settings that's another tap below under drop-down section. Of course this is all approach for demanding users and regular ones will handle stuff from pulled-down notifications widgets but still - mos of the stuff is indeed deeply hidden.
jmholla 20 hours ago [-]
> I don't have much experience with non-tactile driving HUDs, but what always gets me is how, with every major version of Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as they get buried deeper into submenus, calling for ever more amounts of your sensory bandwidth.
Very much this. My favorite is so small, but so, so silly. Google Play used to have a search bar at the top of the home screen. If you click it now, a little message pops up saying search has moved to a different tab. So you click that tab and STILL have to click the same area of the screen to perform a search. So many moronic design choices at these companies.
cafeinux 5 hours ago [-]
I almost never use the Play Store (I have my apps and haven't installed new ones for some years) so I didn't notice this, but I just tested and confirm this feels freaking dumb.
I followed some introductory course to UX a few years ago, and this seems to go against the very essence of what I remember of it, which is mainly "put things where the user expects them, officialize the desire paths"...
mmackh 1 days ago [-]
There is a large burden that smartphones have to carry by having to facilitate, or be in some way involved, in every aspect of our life. And at the same time, industries involved in producing these products, have to stay busy and employed. So we end up in a situation where everything stays in constant flux.
Updates break older apps, change the UI/UX, it's really an interesting situation we're in at the moment.
exar0815 1 days ago [-]
Working at a large Tier 1 Automotive supplier for most European OEMs but Tesla as well, it was a not-complete-joke to make show prototypes that massively hinted at Tesla or had some misleading branding and leave them accidentally lying around, when you wanted to increase your chances of selling it to any other OEM.
Also, when you sold something to Tesla, you could already prepare RFQs for all others basically the day it would be released.
Stopped since Musk went Bananas, now noone wants to be associated with them. At all.
Edit: Clarified "them"
bloopernova 1 days ago [-]
Certainly people have died because their electric windows wouldn't work when the car was submerged in water. If I were world dictator, I'd mandate manual override levers for electric windows.
Everyone should own a car window breaking tool, like a resqme. https://resqme.com/
Tesla arrogance was shown with their semi truck design with the drivers seat in the middle of the cab.
throwaway494932 23 hours ago [-]
People have died because their Tesla had electric doors and they couldn't open them after an accident [1]
This is happening on other cars with electronic door handles too... not just Tesla.
bloopernova 21 hours ago [-]
holy crap, their doors won't open without power?!?
How does that ever get past safety standards?
rad_gruchalski 15 hours ago [-]
Because the legislation doesn’t require that. And they want even less legislation. I mean, how does one even come up with a car made out of stainless steel with edges sharp like knives.
cafeinux 5 hours ago [-]
Legislation couldn't have foreseen a future where such basic features were depending on having power. Yet here we are.
rad_gruchalski 4 hours ago [-]
The European legislation works just fine. The problem is not lack of said legislation.
usrusr 5 hours ago [-]
Rules made long before anyone would come up with electric-only doors outside a sci-fi fantasy. (OT how many "try to push open that deactivated door" does Star Trek have power episode, on average?)
cafeinux 5 hours ago [-]
Tip of you find yourself having to break a car window and you don't have this kind of tool: supposedly, you can remove your headrest and hit the window in a corner with the metal rods to break it.
I don't have the luxury of being able to try, nor have I ever had the necessity to try, so take this with a grain of salt. But if there's any truth in there, better to know about it than feeling helpless.
amelius 1 days ago [-]
Those tools often don't work because the glass in many cars consists of layers of glass and a polymer. That gives it some nice properties but it's unbreakable even with a sledgehammer. I don't know about Teslas but I wouldn't be surprised if they again threw safety out of the window here literally.
seanmcdirmid 11 hours ago [-]
You want point of pressure tools to break the window, not a sledge hammer. My wife made me buy them for our car.
kube-system 11 hours ago [-]
Those often do not work as expected on laminated glass that is now becoming more common on side windows.
I have always assumed that I could just kick the window to break it open in a situation like this.
fatboy 1 days ago [-]
When I was a kid I worked in a double glazing factory. Some of the old timers demonstrated just how hard it is to break a piece of toughened glass to me by whacking one with a bit of wood right in the middle of the pane, really really hard. Nothing happened. Then the dude tapped it really quite gently with a glass breaker in the corner (where it can't flex as much he said) and the whole thing exploded into those little cubes you see on the ground in dodgy car parks.
victorhooi 1 days ago [-]
Car windows are probably harder to break than you think...lol. Also - consider the situation where the car is in, or partially in water, and pressure differentials.
I keep a Resqme in the car glovebox - my other half used to do a lot of interstate driving, and I was always worried she'd be trapped in the car. The Resqme has both a seat-belt cutter, and also a centre-punch for easily breaking the side windows.
teruakohatu 6 hours ago [-]
This is a genuine question: how useful is the resqme in a glove box? Do you think the driver could reach it in the event of an accident, or do you keep it so the passenger can use it to free the other occupants?
psd1 5 hours ago [-]
I'd clip it to the seat belt pulley. But round here you'd have difficulty reaching speeds to have a crash, what with all the minis doing 20 under the limit
snotrockets 15 hours ago [-]
Side windows in most new cars are also laminated. The quarter windows are the one you should try break.
aequitas 24 hours ago [-]
There is a mythbusters episode about exactly this that is definitely worth the watch.
bluGill 1 days ago [-]
windows are normaly tempered glass. You can't kick them out.
genewitch 6 hours ago [-]
They're also unbelievably strong when they're completely rolled up and incredibly weak when they're not.
Although a tiny piece of ceramic at just the right speed will shatter any window.
And I recommend a spring-loaded window breaker, as opposed to having to, like, physically hit the thing against the window.
nixass 1 days ago [-]
Tesla absolutely botched on so many things when ti comes to making cars safe. What is even more mind boggling is how people accepted it and don't see anything wrong with that.
bayindirh 1 days ago [-]
They moved fast and broke things. Incl. but not limited to bumpers, windshields, bones, necks and families.
ozim 1 days ago [-]
As much as Tesla hate is now being popular.
It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on stuff that was already happening in industry.
Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much cheaper because you can the same thing and then software define the function.
Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all functions.
bayindirh 1 days ago [-]
> As much as Tesla hate is now being popular.
I do not like Tesla since they began making cars, and declared that "8 cameras should be enough for everybody". While I like trains a lot, I don't prefer hype trains and popular lines.
> It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on stuff that was already happening in industry.
They went all in because they needed velocity, and everybody panicked and copied them without understanding the problems. Even Ford (the company which has a special simulator to measure cognitive loads of the dashboards they design) did the same mistake, without looking for the problems first, like Radon water jugs.
> Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much cheaper because you can the same thing and then software define the function.
> Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all functions.
I know. It's always about the monies, not the consumer or technology or whatnot. Enshittification, IOW.
mihaaly 16 hours ago [-]
Masses buy crap if it is famous and shiny and have bells and whistles a lot.
If it is expensive too, then they become a fanboy!
How else could the industry pour out bigger and bigger crap with huge earnings otherwise? Poeple love shiny and famous crap!
croes 1 days ago [-]
I doubt they thought it would be better, it just cheaper because you can fix it later in the software.
The rest is just PR to sell inferiority as a feature.
lm2s 1 days ago [-]
Interestingly almost everything VW will reintroduce is already physical on Tesla, no?
The only thing with no physical buttons on Tesla are the temperature and fans.
Or am I missing something?
pja 1 days ago [-]
> Interestingly almost everything VW will reintroduce is already physical on Tesla, no? The only thing with no physical buttons on Tesla are the temperature and fans. Or am I missing something?
The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical for anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn. Anywhere the road system uses roundabouts for instance.
To some extent this is just US parochialism leaking out into the rest of the world, but it's typical of Musk style design to not really think through the reasons for existing design choices.
jqpabc123 1 days ago [-]
"Traditional" auto controls have been refined by over a century of trial and error and real world testing.
It takes a special combination of hubris and immaturity to just cast much of that aside without very careful and thorough consideration. The results of doing so speak for themselves.
darkwater 1 days ago [-]
> The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
They now reverted that back in the Model Y refresh. Just the indicator stalk (the rest are still gone)
indemnity 5 hours ago [-]
The Model Y never had buttons for turning.
darkwater 1 hours ago [-]
I've never said or implied that. But all the last refreshes prior to the MY one had all the stalks removed.
amarcheschi 1 days ago [-]
Not having tactile feedback on turn indicators by stock is absurd imho
nottorp 1 days ago [-]
> The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
I've driven one with an indicator stalk.
> Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical for anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn. Anywhere the road system uses roundabouts for instance.
... but it was "smart" and didn't physically move and it was useless except for 90 degree turns. I call this the "designed in California" disease.
Incidentally, we should be glad Apple abandoned their car plans too.
blendergeek 1 days ago [-]
> I've driven one with an indicator stalk.
Yes. Teslas used to have a proper indicator stick.
nottorp 6 hours ago [-]
The one i tried couldn't be called 'proper' though.
1 days ago [-]
lotsofpulp 20 hours ago [-]
Model Y still has an indicator stalk.
nytesky 1 days ago [-]
Loyal at the back door manual operation. So dangerous in emergencies. Need to remove a panel to operate??
mihaaly 16 hours ago [-]
I recently bought an iPad as the previous one was probably 10 years old and the screen died. The button on the front is dearly missed. Having that new damn thing on the dedicated shelf and I casually touch the button one handed to bring it to life is not there anymore. Have to hold it down for that damn side button. Also never be sure anymore what way is up and which volume is up and down. It it worse than a fussy child always want to be picked up, to be used two handed. All, the, time.
They sacrificed usability for stupid and superficial appearances, those idiots!
jqpabc123 1 days ago [-]
Hyundai for the win.
They do use touch screen functions --- but mainly for setup and configuration --- not for basic controls while driving.
It's illegal to use a touch screen phone while driving in many areas --- and for good reasons. So why is it ok and legal for manufacturers to mandate the use of their built-in touch screen while driving? Seems contradictory to me.
z3dd 4 hours ago [-]
Last gen Hondas have physical buttons, also the volume and temperature knobs click when rotated. The screen has physical back and home buttons too.
kgermino 1 days ago [-]
Tho most of the “physical buttons” on my Hyundai are non-tactile, capacitive buttons.
I love my Ioniq I think a lot of ways it’s a better package than Tesla’s but I still miss the physical buttons from my Honda. I can’t get close to a button and find the right one by feel when it’s a capacitive panel
yokem55 7 hours ago [-]
The '25 ioniq 5's bring a lot of the buttons back. The climate ones are capacative, but are dedicated buttons.
jqpabc123 1 days ago [-]
I haven't driven an Ioniq yet but it sounds like they too may have taken a turn down the wrong path.
I regularly drive a fairly new Elantra where all the essential driving controls are still physical with tactile feedback.
My favorite is the environmental control. A single, big easy to find knob to adjust the temperature without your eyes leaving the road. Turn left (counter-clockwise) for colder, right for hotter. The car takes it from there and selects heat or a/c as needed with an appropriate fan speed. You can still adjust manually but I rarely do so.
Izikiel43 1 days ago [-]
Mazda as well
yibg 7 hours ago [-]
+1 for Mazda. And also for keeping an actual shifter instead of knobs or buttons.
bgnn 15 hours ago [-]
This! I love the UX in my Mazda 6.
LightBug1 1 days ago [-]
Yep - people think of Tesla first for EV's, but (for the overall package) Hyundai are far ahead.
Emphasis on 'overall package'
1 days ago [-]
modriano 9 hours ago [-]
How did it take this long. I was a regular reader of Car and Driver magazine from 2002 to 2006 when I was in high school (in a Detroit suburb) and I remember them absolutely dragging the BMW iDrive system that eliminated a ton of physical controls and took the driver's attention off the road. I've kept my 2010 car largely to avoid getting a system without knobs and buttons that I can learn and use without looking.
I don't know how any auto designer could both regularly drive a car and not immediately reject the idea of eliminating physical controls for wipers/lights/temp control/sound system.
alberth 1 days ago [-]
Years ago I had a Saab.
Everything was a button/knob.
Probably the best car instrument panel I've ever used/seen.
And night mode! A killer feature I’ve missed on any car I’ve driven since.
(Quite simple - kills all instrument lights except speedo. If something happens which requires your attention, the relevant instrument comes back to life. Makes driving in the dark much less exhausting)
alberth 1 days ago [-]
I totally forgot about that, yes - was amazing!
IIRC, the instrument panel was design by Saab aerospace division.
jonahhorowitz 10 hours ago [-]
Yes! Night mode was great on long road trips. I've honestly thought of buying a gently used late-00s Saab instead of anything new.
Jeff2Serve 3 hours ago [-]
That is exactly what I did last year. Bought a low mileage 2003 9-5. Treated the whole process like owning a commercial aircraft where replaced as part as possible to start fresh. Easier in this day and age, with internet helping on guidance and parts. I am not a car guy overall, though average auto design, external and internal, low-priced or expensive, is like fingernails on a chalkboard. Saab was about only thing that was calming for me.
swamp_donkey 10 hours ago [-]
My recollection is it also dimmed the areas of the Speedo that were far from the current speed
m000 16 hours ago [-]
Early '00s was the peak of car dashboard UX. After that it has been mostly regressions, sold as "innovation".
qball 14 hours ago [-]
Early '00s was the peak of computer UX, too.
psd1 5 hours ago [-]
I see where you're coming from with that, but for me, it's either a shell or omnisearch boxes like in Windows 7 and VS code (or emacs)
gloxkiqcza 1 days ago [-]
It was sometimes mocked but I actually really like the 1st gen Porsche Panamera center console full of buttons as well
Amen. And if anybody mocks my Gen2 Macan with 100+ physical buttons and controls within reach of the driver, they will get mocked right the fuck back.
dismalaf 1 days ago [-]
Saabs had amazing design, especially the interior "cockpit". Miss them.
petee 15 hours ago [-]
Same, and they all had great sightlines. When I bought my 9-3 as the dealer was going out of business, he told me what a huge deal it was internally that they didn't offer cupholders in the US, the idea being that you should be focused on driving not drinking. US dealers pressured them into finally adding that ninja popup before they went out of business
abruzzi 16 hours ago [-]
I don't know if they still do it, but I loved my old Saab 99 with the ignition switch in the console between the front seats. Intead of locking the steering, it locked the gearshift in reverse. It didn't make anything work better, but it made the end user experience feel different/special.
petee 15 hours ago [-]
They kept it for a long time, I had an '87 900 and a '04 9-3 which had a fob but still plugged in and turned in the center like the old ones. I liked the position; I heard it used to foil car thiefs who couldn't figure out where the ignition was
b0ner_t0ner 24 hours ago [-]
SAAB (Svenska Aeroplan AB) started out making airplanes.
dismalaf 23 hours ago [-]
I'm aware. And they still make planes.
nmstoker 4 hours ago [-]
Wonderful news. I get the value of touch screens for appropriate cases but it's excellent to see common sense return.
Countering the hidden/inaccessible nature of touch screen buttons is the obvious point but also the return to physical buttons stops engineers from randomly moving controls with each new software update - that's what ruins things with much regular desktop software: you learn something, the layout is committed to memory and then three months later the feature is moved!
It's then massively harder to find - you almost never find yourself thinking "ah thank you for moving that, now it's better!"
WalterBright 8 hours ago [-]
I learned to drive on a stickshift that I put together myself (with a bit of help from my buddies). As a result, I knew how everything worked, and drove it for many years.
The car was totaled on the freeway, so I bought a new Pontiac Firebird stick. One day, I stepped on the clutch, turned the key to start it, and nothing happened. Oh crud. I tried all kinds of things, it was totally dead. Suddenly, the engine did turn over and run.
It turns out, there was a switch behind the pedal, and you had to press the pedal all the way to the floor to trip the switch which enabled the starter circuit.
Some things were just too clever for me!
psd1 5 hours ago [-]
You were flooring it on start?
Jesus of piston rings, forgive them, for they know not what wear they put on their bearing surfaces
Brian_K_White 2 hours ago [-]
No. The clutch pedal.
With a manual transmission it is possible to start the engine without the starter if the car is moving. You press the clutch, put the transmission into whatever gear makes sense for the speed, release the clutch briefly. You can do it from a dead stop by pushing the car if you're on a level surface, on a hill, or at highway speed.
Most cars for decades now have had some form of disabling the starter unless the clutch is pressed, and pressed all the way.
That does make sense in the normal case when the car is not moving. If the car is parked, you usually do not want the starter to make the car move. If the clutch is not pressed all the way, then the car might move when the starter turns over the engine.
That car apparently also disabled the ignition, or maybe they were trying to use the starter instead of pop starting. Can't tell which from what they said. You could do it either way in that situation where the car is already moving at higway speed.
"Don't allow starter without clutch" isn't always right though, just usually. It can be useful to intentionally use the starter to move the car. My 97 4runner has a factory button on the dash specifically to allow the starter to run without pressing the clutch one time. (it resets for each turn of the key) Instead of disabling the spark, in this vehicle they disable the starter if the clutch isn't pressed. Turn the key all the way and the starter just doesn't go.
The option to override that is intended for getting the vehicle unstuck from mud by using the starter motor to craw very slow in low gear, slower than the engine can go. But I only ever use it to start in neutral without getting into and back out of the car, usually to warm it up in winter but sometimes while working on it or wanting the engine for electricity temporarily while camping or working or something.
jillesvangurp 4 hours ago [-]
The clutch pedal, not the gas pedal. You are supposed to also use the brakes. So, it's a two feet operation. Two feet, three pedals. Bad things happen if you mess with the clutch and the gas pedal at the same time.
Automatic gears are a great thing. I live in Europe so I learned to drive using manual gears. I find driving automatic gears is less stressful and easier. I kind of prefer it.
Anyway, electric cars have no need for gears / clutches. And they have regenerative braking. One pedal operation is pretty nice.
Vinnl 1 days ago [-]
Presumably like other auto makers will also do, with Euro NCAP giving lower ratings to those who don't?
Yeah people are acting like car manufacturers have turned over a new leaf when in fact they are just gaming the regulations as usual.
k8sToGo 7 hours ago [-]
The decision to go back to physical buttons on the steering wheel for example was introduced before the NCAP thing
BrenBarn 1 days ago [-]
We can only hope it's the start of a trend. I can't think of a single car feature I would want on a touchscreen instead of a physical control, except I guess something like GPS (which I don't really consider a car feature, but maybe that's just because I'm getting old and curmudgeonly).
precommunicator 1 days ago [-]
Any feature that you have to fully stop to activate and is not often used IMO would be fine on a touchscreen, e.g disabling ESP.
amelius 1 days ago [-]
The upside of a touchscreen is that you can make the buttons disappear if they go out of context.
bipson 1 days ago [-]
The point is that those "essential functions" never go out of context.
amelius 1 days ago [-]
It's easy to end up with something like this though:
What's wrong with that? The optimal UI for anything remotely complex arguably includes both physical and touchscreen controls.
nottorp 1 days ago [-]
Who decides the context?
phatfish 1 days ago [-]
Random know-it-alls on the internet obviously.
2 hours ago [-]
svelle 1 days ago [-]
A feel like people are missing that this change isn't just for the touchscreen but especially for the abysmal capacitive buttons on the steering wheel VW introduced with the Golf 8 and the id models. One of the worst design decisions I've yet to see in a car. Right next to their decision to put a capacitive slider for volume and/or heating right below the touchscreen where you'd usually rest your fingers when using said touchscreen while driving.
Yhippa 9 hours ago [-]
On top of that, the slider isn't backlit, right?
k8sToGo 7 hours ago [-]
It is in the newest generation
technothrasher 1 days ago [-]
The Porsche Macan's whole center console went capacitive touch a few years back. It is atrociously bad compared to the earlier cars with physical buttons. It's impossible to find any of the "buttons" on the expanse of smooth surface without taking your eyes off the road.
yakshaving_jgt 1 days ago [-]
I have a 2012 Cayenne and the cockpit is truly a thing of beauty. It feels like being a pilot. I hope they bring the buttons back. Photo attached for context.
We just got a clean 2013 Honda CR-V (loaded LX-L model) and it's got buttons & knobs (and dial gauges!). Really nice car, it feels like a Lexus inside.
There is a small touchscreen, but it's mainly for the XM radio & Nav.
ipcress_file 10 hours ago [-]
Peak UI design in cars hit around the 1980s. All that's needed are a small number of physical controls: headlights, turn signals, wipers, heat/AC, etc.
Anything more than that should work with voice command -- or it doesn't belong in a car.
jonathanlydall 8 hours ago [-]
It’s not just having physical buttons that matters, they must also not have other poor design decisions.
Our secondary, very short trip car, is an old 2008 VW Polo and although it has physical AC and recycle air buttons, they chose to make them be toggle buttons as opposed to ones you can feel/see are pressed in or not.
They have a backlight to indicate their “on” status but (and maybe it’s worse because it’s old) you can’t see the backlight in bright sunlight and I have to shadow them with my hand to see.
The final annoyance with this is if I turn off the car with the fan speed turned to “off”, when I next start the car it has forgotten the on/off state of each of the two buttons.
So these buttons, although being physical, are almost as bad as soft touch buttons. If they had just made them buttons which are either pressed in or out, all these annoyances wouldn’t exist.
Obviously the Polos would have changed completely now, but I haven’t checked VWs much though as in South Africa you get considerably less car for your money compared to most other brands, but VWs still seem pretty popular for what I can only guess is status symbol reasons.
usrusr 5 hours ago [-]
State at bootup is a legitimate trade-off decision though: some states you want to survive a power cycle, others you want to reset, and still others you'd want to have a user-configurable default state. Momentary + indicator makes all of that easy, whereas a mechanical off state with powered reset on bootup (or on shutdown) would be a pretty wild "no expense spared" approach. Momentary + indicator vs mechanical toggle really is more than just penny pinching, it's more like not burning wads of banknotes.
And it gets even more clear when you enter the present days and add additional inputs like voice control or defaults associated with a personal keyfob.
psd1 5 hours ago [-]
Or you could just turn the button off manually.
This is manufacturers inventing a meaningless distinction.
The value of controls that perfectly implement your wishes is not great over controls that you just fucken set, even without the terrible ergonomics that the former brings.
thih9 1 days ago [-]
I don’t think anyone ever wished for non-physical controls.
I can understand them in phones, tablets or other small and generic devices, trading ergonomy for portability; the net effect on UX could be positive. But in the context of cars (i.e. large and specialized) I see only net negative UX.
usrusr 5 hours ago [-]
One explanation why it happened in cars, beyond the direct cost of the buttons: the cost of managing the button sets for all the possible combinations of opt-in features. Perhaps the option space is a little smaller in export markets, but when you look at the combinatorial explosion of feature options you can pick for your average German car in Germany, it's just mindboggling.
All that money that didn't go into the drive train (because all the parts of a high performance ICE drivetrain aren't that much different from those of, say, a Dacia), it went into maintaining an absolutely large zoo of upsell options.
rbanffy 2 hours ago [-]
What should be considered “vital functions”? Last time I drove an VW car, it had buttons for almost everything, including most infotainment functions, right on the steering wheel and column. Cruise control, lane keeping, all sorts of alert options and so on, all easily accessible.
Do we consider things like air conditioning, heated seats and so on something the driver absolutely needs to change while they drive?
sorenjan 1 days ago [-]
I think people here should look up a video of Xiaomi SU7 (for instance Doug DeMuro's [0]) They have a big touch screen, but they also have an option of attaching a row of physical buttons underneath, for those who want it. It seems like an overall very good car for a reasonable price, and really shows quite well how overvalued Tesla is. Xiaomi announced that they would start making cars in 2021, in 2024 they sold 135 000 SU7.
Good move from Volkswagen. But Mazda gets my credit for being the first to reverse this trend. Hopefully others will follow.
We now need stricter regulations to what extend car makers can embrace the "Software Defined Vehicle" vision without compromising safety. It must be ensured that the driver isn't playing with the touch screen during drive (in non autonomous driving mode) for longer than few seconds.
mmmpetrichor 11 hours ago [-]
I want an EV and the major thing I'm going to look for is a high number of physical buttons. I have a 2008 GTI and it has a wonderful physical interface. I'm not trading it in for a giant touchscreen I have to navigate while I'm driving. I can't even believe that is what has happened to a lot of cars.
karmakaze 24 hours ago [-]
The physical buttons are so flat and edgeless (except for the raised 3-across row), it's like their listening but not understanding.
'Apple' aesthetic is the worst thing to have happened to industrial design.
amelius 2 hours ago [-]
Somewhat related. What are your favorite physical controls on Digikey?
ThinkBeat 1 days ago [-]
This is great.
Dedicated buttons are far easier and faster to operate.
Plus if your tablet cracks open you can still control
most features. (I think).
For a while I drove some bigger pickup trucks.
(Long ago).
They often bragged that the knobs and buttons were
big enough to be operated with gloves on.
Pretty great when it is cold out.
and really easy to operate too.
Modern cars do need a lot more buttons so making
them smaller is nessescary.
seb1204 11 hours ago [-]
I don't agree with you that we need more smaller buttons.
Nowadays you can have buttons and dials that you can roll freely or step and press (in, and even to sides). All these actions are sufficiently different to me.
If done well the button can even be context sensitive when combined well with the car UI.
5 hours ago [-]
725686 11 hours ago [-]
I wish there was regulation for limiting what can go in the screen.
Only the "new" stuff should go there. The rest, as it has always been, with easily accesible knobs and buttons.
Even new stuff should be handled with voice commands. No screen fiddling.
WalterBright 8 hours ago [-]
I'm convinced that most electronic devices I buy have user interfaces that nobody even tried before shipping them.
And yet even today here in this thread there are people who are like “oh, but i never have to change the temperature in my car, I just set it up once and it just works™”
Reminds me of the guy who used to work with me. He would get on and on about how people don’t need cars because he can manage on a bicycle everywhere. Everywhere being a gym, work and a university. His whole world was about 10km².
Yhippa 9 hours ago [-]
I really liked the rotary knob control in my Mazda 6. It sounds like it is very similar to BMW's iDrive. You still had a touchscreen with menus but you could use either one very effectively. I think the key for either more physical buttons or virtual control like that is to allow the user to make these changes by feel without having to look away from where you are driving.
ggm 11 hours ago [-]
Can and should be regulated.
larusso 1 days ago [-]
Back in 2021 this was the major reason to not go for a VW but a Skoda. The ID.4 has these ugly touch buttons on the steering wheel and even for the window controls. Skoda uses the same tech but combined with oldschool buttons. They have kept the skoda like third column stock for the cruise control. Still not perfect mind you. Modern cars have so many settings and knobs and features. Don‘t get me started on EU regulations that have to be implemented but are guarded by model year. Example: I can permanently turn off the warning sound in case I‘m driving over the speed limit in my car. Newer cars are required to reset everytime the car starts. Same for settings like driving modes. But that all depends on the model year. Since its software they could roll this out to older models. It makes it a weird experience when driving a newer model which suddenly doesn‘t remember its settings ;)
genewitch 6 hours ago [-]
How does your car know what the speed limit is?
trinix912 2 hours ago [-]
It probably reads the signs. My 2020 Civic has it too, but it almost never works properly because of the way speed limits are signaled here. Intersections here cancel the speed limit signs that are before them, but the car expects to see an extra crossed-out sign so it still shows the wrong limit on the dash. Thankfully, it doesn't beep or warn about it.
eimrine 3 hours ago [-]
Proprietary software? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".
mobilene 17 hours ago [-]
I own a 2024 VW Jetta GLI. The haptic steering-wheel "buttons" are sloppy and uncertain. I applaud the return to real buttons.
At least my GLI has a physical volume knob and physical heater controls.
hinkley 16 hours ago [-]
The main thing that kept me from getting an Ioniq was the stupid display and no buttons. If it had been cheaper I would have gotten it anyway, but the pundits guessed the sticker price about 10% low and I was not going to bother paying more than I had anticipated and deal with UX rage every time I drove my vehicle.
For some of us a car ride is how we zen out. If you make them anti-zen you will lose customer goodwill.
I’m still a little mad at VW for dieselgate but real buttons puts them back on the list.
gilbetron 13 hours ago [-]
Hmm - I bought my Ioniq because of the physical controls. A handful of features are still on the screen, but the 2025 version apparently fixed a bit of that (seat warmers/coolers for instance). Tons of buttons all over the place (especially on the steering wheel).
hinkley 3 hours ago [-]
Sounds like they listened to the negative reviews of the 2024 model. Good to know.
philjohn 16 hours ago [-]
I've got an EV6 and most functions have physical controls, which was a key driver in getting it.
Climate control (albeit shared between media with a button to switch between the two), heated seats, heated steering wheel, various buttons on the steering wheel. Heck, add in Carplay with Siri and I rarely, if ever, have to touch the screen on a drive.
throw7 1 days ago [-]
I also don't want huge monitors. Hopefully the return of buttons and dials reduces those console monstrosities.
nxpnsv 6 hours ago [-]
Touch screens & feature subscriptions are things that just don't belong in cars.
nsbk 1 days ago [-]
Nice! I drive a 2005 Audi with all physical controls. I intend to keep it for as long as it keeps running, so if the trend continues and more manufacturers join it I may be able to skip the whole huge touchscreen madness altogether
bloomingeek 11 hours ago [-]
My 2021 Ram truck has a touch screen that must be used to adjust the air vent control. Meaning I have to take my eyes off the road to move the air to the windshield. Dangerous and stupid.
lowlevel 13 hours ago [-]
I figued this was coming when I paid more for the outgoing 2020 GTI instead of the 2021.. but I didn't think it would take 5 years. Nice to see them acknowledge that they made a mistake.
baskinator 12 hours ago [-]
It's a great move.
I'd love for the backup cam to be integrated with the mirror as a standard feature. It's available aftermarket. Then a screen isn't really needed at all. It's just one more expensive thing that can break. It would be nice to be able to swap it out with a sub $200 head unit like the good old days.
Car audio was my intro to DC electronic systems in the 90's and I learned a ton from it.
riz1 1 days ago [-]
This news brought joy back to my life. I live in Berlin and often rent these Miles car share cars. The ID3 is an absolute joy to drive, way better than the Tesla's out there. But for me, those touch buttons are an actual nuisance.
xattt 1 days ago [-]
I appreciate that automakers are not doubling down and creating capacitive touch pedals.
euroderf 1 days ago [-]
Speaking of which... driving barefoot is a different experience; give it a try if it's legal in your jurisdiction.
It's interesting to see all the responses from the different states, and how different in language and length some of them are (look at Florida, for example, and compare with Alabama.)
lttlrck 1 days ago [-]
I was taught to drive manual barefoot - by an instructor. To get better pedal feel.
(And decades later I simrace barefoot where there is essentially no useful pedal feel... in VR, so all physical interactions are completely blind - no touchscreens!)
euroderf 16 hours ago [-]
Power brakes took away some of the utility of driving barefoot. A definite loss of feedback. But then again, in the ealy 21st century in the West is there any car that does not have power brakes ?
porridgeraisin 1 days ago [-]
> if it's legal
It's illegal in some places?
I'm in India and I learnt to and mostly always drive barefoot. If I try to drive with shoes it just doesn't feel right. I can't get the tactile feedback right. Have to get used to it I suppose. But then I don't really wear shoes that much (slippers do just fine for most of my day)
nottorp 1 days ago [-]
Send some indian weather over :)
Or go on a long trip to somewhere more northern and you'll have to either learn to drive in thick boots or freeze.
bipson 1 days ago [-]
Very illegal in most of the EU AFAIK
technothrasher 1 days ago [-]
A quick search showed that it is illegal in Spain, but not Germany, France, or the UK, and nothing really showing up either way about any other European country. Though I didn't dig down enough to find legal advice I would actually trust.
bipson 23 hours ago [-]
It's not that clear cut it seems.
For private drivers it is not illegal per se. But if you have an accident, they (police, prosecution, insurance) will quickly blame it on unfit shoewear.
There is (legally accepted) consensus in Germany and Austria that a regular, closed shoe without heels gives you best control.
Barefoot is IMHO treated unfairly, if you're used to drive barefoot. And living in a country where people wear shoes most of the time, they will assume you're not used to it.
technothrasher 1 days ago [-]
It's a common urban legend in the US that it is illegal to drive barefoot, but it isn't true. There are no state or federal laws prohibiting driving barefoot. I don't know about the rest of the world.
SanjayMehta 1 days ago [-]
Driving barefoot is safer than driving with chappals (“flipflops”), at least your feet won’t come off and get stuck in the pedals.
For the hills I use shoes with a soft sole to “feel the road.”
pjmlp 1 days ago [-]
Finally!
At least in Europe most Ford models also have kept most of their physical buttons.
stainablesteel 2 hours ago [-]
thank god, having one screen is just one way to break every control you needed
1970-01-01 1 days ago [-]
>the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light – below the screen,”
Not mentioned: wipers, shifter, and signals. Everyone here should consider these vital to driving the car.
appointment 15 hours ago [-]
I don't think VW ever moved away from conventional stalks for wipers and indicators. The drive mode is also on a stalk in the ID.3.
whoitwas 1 days ago [-]
Thank fuck. A company actually responds to demand instead of forcing the most profitable solution onto consumers. It's how markets can work if we let them.
timbit42 1 days ago [-]
No. It is responding to regulation.
whoitwas 24 hours ago [-]
It's smart regulation. The article suggests it's in response to consumer demand.
numpad0 1 days ago [-]
Does this mean they've given up dissolving infotainment(nav) into the rest of the car as a product? Or something else?
ano-ther 1 days ago [-]
I‘d be interested in an economic comparison. How much does it actually save to replace physical controls with a touchscreen?
NullPrefix 1 days ago [-]
Save? Where are you getting this idea from? Move from buttons to touchscreen raised the price because touchscreens are expensive. Return to buttons will raise the price once again because buttons are extra parts.
Underphil 13 hours ago [-]
A switch requires a physical and tangible thing to be produced. A touchscreen button is done in software and costs nothing extra to produce. You already know this I'm sure.
NullPrefix 4 hours ago [-]
>A touchscreen button is done in software and costs nothing extra to produce
Touchscreen had to be added, during the big move from buttons to touchscreen. It didn't just appear out of thin air.
johannes1234321 1 days ago [-]
The touch screen is there for other reasons (setup, navigation, ...) anyways and won't go away.
(Not) Having physical buttons then is a cost factor.
afiori 1 days ago [-]
Price is different from cost
interloxia 1 days ago [-]
I like the touch sensitive controls on my ID4. It's a bit better than some of the "real" buttons on the steering wheel on some of their older cars which were terrible to use. I get the hate but I find it a bit one sided.
That said. It would have been nice if they had made the plastic a bit more premium. The cheap shiny chreaking plastic isn't great. The redeeming feature is the swipe feature for me.
Good buttons will be better.
Cheap plastic crap will review well but won't necessarily be any better to use for me, at least for the steering column buttons.
instagib 23 hours ago [-]
Next get rid of glass roofs or option them out.
lowlevel 13 hours ago [-]
I had one blow up on me on the highway... but I can't really give it up...
instagib 11 hours ago [-]
Enough bad experiences here too. The heat that comes through in a desert is far too much.
CamperBob2 16 hours ago [-]
How about no?
Does no work?
Fine, it's settled, no it is.
petre 10 hours ago [-]
I had an Audi A3 2013. Arguably it had the best physical controls. VW group also did not reinvent the UI with every new model, they prefer to boringly replicate it and have the same location for controls over their different brands. This all canged in their EVs which now have touch screens.
6 hours ago [-]
1 hours ago [-]
kindeyoowee 10 hours ago [-]
[dead]
1 days ago [-]
486sx33 13 hours ago [-]
Please bring back diesel to North America !
Rendered at 14:51:27 GMT+0000 (UTC) with Wasmer Edge.
What's happening with touch screens is total mess due to car designers trying to circumvent regulations (e.g., can't have that screen in front of a driver, or projected over the windshield) - so they are forced to move it to a side, which makes operating it while driving more dangerous.
But even button's design is falling prey of it, with buttons hidden way below the top of the dashboard, made of the same size, etc. It takes forever to scan & find the right button (e.g. internal air) while driving.
And I don't see it as just some recent trend (although there's much more of it). Even 10-12 years ago, this way already a problem.
One example of stupidity: Toyota Sienna 2013 has brightness control for its media screen (which also shows back up camera) via a touch screen button. Turning brightness at night works ok - but then turning it back on during day light is impossible - nothing is visible on that dimmed screen!! Latest Toyota Sienna has all of the climate control buttons (8?) in 1 row, very low, of the same size, barely visible signs on them - recipe for disaster...
I wish these designers and execs would have their kids life depend on it - I wonder if that'd change their thinking...
Why are people so exceptional lazy that they would put other people at risk while they wait for a machine to do something for them, rather than reaching up and wiping away some of the condensation so they can safely operate the vehicle? Are people really this astonishingly incompetent?
I rail against touch and ambiguous controls in safety critical applications more than most, but continuing to drive when you can't see properly is akin to get-there-itis.
With low visibility slowing down in the middle of the road is not save either though, given that those behind you don't expect it, and that few people keep sufficient distance. Same with standing on the side in such conditions.
In the described situation I think the best option is to be able and use the right buttons quickly, sticking to the original subject of the discussion. The option that would let you safely keep going with the flow is the best one I would say, under the given conditions.
Even if a million scenarios and alternatives can be thought of, what's the point of derailing a discussion focused on a particular subject? We only have a few hundred comments of room here, I think there is more value in keeping the focus.
And while the ideal scenario is of course that no problem arises, and second being that the problem is swiftly and efficiently resolved.. given those scenarios do not occur, and you have to decide between "keep going without seeing the road" and "putting hazards on and slowly coming to a complete stop", the latter definitely seems more reasonable in every way.
Of course specific scenarios where stopping will be less safe can be thought up, but statistically speaking, I dont see how an uncontrolled multi-ton moving object would be more safe that a stationary one.
Yes, obviously, but poorly designed or failed equipment does not absolve you of your responsibility to drive safely.
> Even if a million scenarios and alternatives can be thought of, what's the point of derailing a discussion focused on a particular subject?
The topic is road safety and the point is both pertinent and revealing. The attitude in your comment and others are highlighting basic failures in driver training, independent of the equipment design.
Honestly, I think you should reflect on your attitude here before you end up a road traffic statistic.
You are already operating the vehicle in traffic in bad conditions for yourself and everyone else, and still need to be able to operate the vehicle and still need to be able to see no matter which of the possible reactions you believe is least-risk at that particular time.
Whether you judge that the least-risk response is to turn on hazards and slow down or even stop right in the road where other drivers who you can not see are not expecting it, whether you can find a place to pull over and see it clearly enough to be absolutely sure there is not a child standing there, or to make no changes to current behavior at all so that you are the most predictable to everyone else, you still need to be able to operate the vehicle and see the road and other vehicles in order to do any of those. None of your suggestions gets around that, even coming to a full stop with hazards on.
Your theory also depends on other drivers to see you and your hazards. Where is the hazard control? This whole discussion is about poor controls.
Even if they did exactly what you who were not there presumes to declare they should have done, it doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the problem or solve the problem or work around the problem.
I mean this in the most charitable way possible - you should refrain from driving until you rectify this issue, either through self reflection or remedial training. Until then, you are a danger to yourself and others.
I agree with you on this -- but that is not how people behave. Just because people should behave that way, doesnt mean they do. People have a natural inclination to try and fix the problem by giving up a bit of attention -- that is bad for all of us who are affected by these decisions -- and this means -- fix the design.
Another situation - narrow intercity winding roads, 0 room for safe stopping of car for next 2km. Again, asking for a crash especially in situation when your windshield fogs which is usually during heavier rain.
Yet another situation - driving in even semi-dense traffic in any bigger city. Again, no place to just stop and block others safely.
I could go on for a while. Not always the smartest move.
I do believe though that if we took literally all possible scenarios and weighed them by the probability of them occuring, the results would show that a stopped vehicle is safer than a moving vehicle whose driver can not see.
In fact, I feel confident in saying that based on this comment, you are an unsafe driver and should voluntarily undertake remedial training, as you are unfit to be on the road.
Quotes appropriate, because I don't believe this is about safety, usability, or even aesthetics. It's about reducing the number of parts on the vehicle, i.e. lowering cost. It's car manufacturers deliberately making driving less safe to save a few bucks.
Re Touch screen, I agree - that's pure cost cutting. But that's just crazy. I'm surprised regulators are not preventing it.
Regulators are, from a long time, paid by car manufacturers.
One famous example is Anton Yelchin, who played Chekov in the new Star Trek movies. The new Jeep shifter design made it less obvious whether you put it in neutral or park, and so it rolled toward him when he got out and pinned him to death.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36572649
This is awful news to me. I've driven a wagoneer that had the spinning knob for the shifter, and yeah, I wasn't a fan.
I had the opportunity to drive a Tesla recently, and I was pretty blown away by how hostile the ux was. Even the indicator stalk has no tactile feedback leading to me indicating left then right multiple times after completing a simple lane change (as I pushed it slightly too far for the lane change mode so it didn't shut off automatically). Don't get me started on things like the AC and window wipers being behind the touchscreen, it's like they designed it to require a copilot.
It's driver aid features also get easily tricked leading to random steering corrections and slamming on the brakes. I'd love to know if anyone's analyzed the rate of rear end collisions compared to older/simpler cars, as I suspect it could be statistically higher.
It was also fairly amusing parking it in the garage - it seemed to mistake our dog for a motorbike and the other vehicle as a truck with the 3 of us colliding, glad it didn't try and automatically phone in the "collisions"
It baffles me that they were ever considered “luxury” cars except as to price.
Funnily this happens only in my model 3, not my X (I bought them before Elon went crazy). Both have automatic wipers on.
Nothing spells out "luxury" better than misadjusted panel gaps..
Not surprisingly, companies that have been making cars forever are pretty good at making cars. Cars have always been a very competitive market, so you didn't have the kind of absolute stagnation you see in some other industries. Tesla just gave them a kick in the butt to make electric cars.
That's true, and they are insanely fast. But I will never forget when the Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class. When I tried one out, my overwhelming first impression was: this is it? And that was 2012. And it's still basically the same car!
AIUI, it turns out that the ability to select drive vs reverse is considered safety critical, so it has to work even if the infotainment system is not operational. This involves something along the lines of a dual-port touch sensor so that an independent, higher-reliability system can detect the gesture to change direction, and the hardware for that is not free. And the “gear shift” stalk was simple and cheap.
I haven’t tried it in an appropriate model Tesla, but I suspect you can trigger an infotainment reboot using whatever the current button press combination is, and then, before it finishes rebooting, select drive or reverse by swiping the left edge of the screen, and it will work.
Score one for car regulations doing the right thing? Maybe, but this all misses the mark, because how many people will know to do the ridiculous swipe on an invisible target when the need to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle and their infotainment system isn’t working.
(I don’t know about newer Teslas, but infotainment glitches on older models are common.)
That was Tesla's sales pitch. Model S was no competitor for Mercedes-Benz S-Class. It competed against the E-Class.
The frame and body and interior was garbage. That drive train though.
Success is self limiting. It makes people start to engage in magical thinking about their own abilities and vision.
Tesla is upper middle class (model S) or lower, just with potentially more horsepower in some models. It has great straight line performance and thats about it, but then ie dragsters should be in ultra-luxury class by that logic.
The vehicle keeps also falling apart. The wheel covers keep falling off because the clips keep breaking, even though there has been no damage that should have caused it.
On the previous one they were about seven or eight repair attempts for the window failing to roll up so I was unable to secure the vehicle and they kept failing to provide loaners when it was in for service.
This is for the model X and model S, which is supposed to be their “luxury” vehicles
By the way, if you would like to lemon your Tesla, please read your purchase agreement for the email to send your request. You get back all of the interest, payments, tax, registration and everything.
Lemon laws are laws that provide a remedy for purchasers of cars and other consumer goods in order to compensate for products that repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance. Although many types of products can be defective, the term "lemon" is mostly used to describe defective motor vehicles, such as cars, trucks, and motorcycles.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law
https://www.wordsense.eu/lemoning/ It's number 5 here ^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQaavQNGsMY
At this point it feels like you're misunderstanding the chain on purpose.
First time riding in both. The road noise in the Y made it feel really cheap. Rough ride. Generally cheap feel.
The Kia was much smoother, quieter, obviously more premium materials.
It's really simple, Tesla people will tell you the car is built around a computer while other manufacturers stick a computer in their car. They're correct, and that's not a compliment for the Tesla because the ergonomics as well as the fit and finish were clearly an afterthought.
Kia EV6 GT Dry Michelin PS4S Summer 255/40-21 255/40-21 64,4 66,9 68,8 67,06 Tesla Model Y RWD Dry Michelin Pilot Sport EV Summer 255/40-20 255/40-20 64,5 67,1 68,7 67,09
Source: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HOwktdiZmm40atGPwymz...
If price and fuel wasn't a consideration (diesel cars and fuel have crazy taxes around here) I'd end with Toyota 10/10 times.
The current Model 3 seems to use about 25kWh/100mi. The off-peak rate (PG&E EV2-A) is 31c/kWh, giving $0.078/mi.
Tesla is winning, but not by a ton.
Supercharging seems to be a bit more expensive than home charging. Gasoline is less expensive outside California. Electricity is much less expensive outside of the investor-owned utility territories. Heck, Palo Alto (not exactly a low cost area) only charges $0.21c/kWh.
Where I live in Norway, this morning diesel is around $1.85 / l (so around $7 / gallon) and that is on the cheaper side since the pandemic ended.
I’ll take a Toyota Century over a Tesla any day of the week.
Facts are definitely treated as misinformation by a certain class of people these days, that's for sure.
The most obvious example is they have few ways to customize the look of your vehicle. A model S has what 7 colors and 2 kinds of wheels vs 2025 EQS 450 with 18 colors and 6 wheels to choose from. The Bens then has 23 Upholstery options and 4 independent trims and that’s before all the odd option packages.
Tesla used to operate an exclusive charging network which was a premium feature, but they opened that up to other manufacturers.
CCS2/Type-2 were adopted as EU standards with enforcement to start this year, although it sounds like it's more of a "the charger must have this, but can have others".
You clearly haven't sat in a loaded '25 Camry.
I really dislike using a touch screen while driving, as it makes me take my eyes off the road more than I'd like. I also just like how physical controls feel and make more sense. I was gifted the book, The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman, back in college and it really stuck with me how unintuitive many physical controls are in cars, as well as poorly designed doors on/in buildings (Norman doors as they are often called, in honor of the book).
https://youtu.be/QEE_-C0Nwjw?si=wZsabQ_0cqGlxORL
You never need to touch the AC controls when driving thanks to auto mode. In the worst case you can use voice control, which you can again trigger from a physical control.
The 3D visualization is completely separate from the code that actually runs FSD, auto park, and other driver assist features, so just because it shows something wonky like a motorbike doesn't mean that it's what the car "thinks" it is.
I have physical buttons for changing the temperature, driver's side and passenger's side, and they don't get used even one in three times we get into the car -- but I'm still glad for the physical controls.
Honestly, after setting my car to my preferred temperature months ago, I never had to touch the hvac ever since. No idea why people keep wanting to fiddle with theirs.
I think some people would do well travelling a tid bit more.
> People don't feel hot or cold based just on ambient temperature
This is well known, and it is why sun-load sensors have been commonplace in cars for decades.
Automotive engineering is quite mature.
Never got in the car having one layer too many and having to turn down the temp? Or the other way around: not enough layers on and realise 10 minutes into the drive that it’s a bit chilly? Is your preferred temperature the same as the one of you passenger? Or you get in the car from a massive rain and you need to blast that aircon and bump the temp to deal with humidity completely obstructing the windshield?
My thermostat just works. I don’t live in an extreme climate, so layering isn’t a thing. The car has a button specifically for defogging your windshield, so that is treated separately from climate control. You can hit max if you want drastic temperature change, but it’s a heat pump so thermostat is the only way to go really.
See, you don’t. It’s okay.
“It barely ever rains in California. I don’t understand why we need wipers. And when it rains once in 10 years, I can stop… I don’t understand why everyone cannot just stop. Why do we spend money on those little engines and wipers.”
By the way… there’s nothing preventing auto aircon and having a manual dial to change the setting rather than through a touchscreen. It safer. You know, in case if you have to. Which you don’t have to, apparently. That’s cool.
The AC auto button takes the needed action to get to the temperature you set. In On Tesla this was mostly set and forget.
Does it also do seat heating/cooling automatically?
>In the worst case you can use voice control, which you can again trigger from a physical control.
Does it understand my accent or do I need to learn to talk like an American?
I have the opposite experience. My friends Teslas blow me away with their drivers assistance stuff. But the German and Japanese cars I’ve driven - absolute garbage, bordering on deadly. Random braking, not braking even with traffic stopped in front, aggressive collision prevention in places like parking lots, suddenly losing recognition of lanes, and other things. I believe these companies outsource the high tech stuff - not sure to whom - but I suspect they aren’t a tech company.
One person's "context sensitive" is another person's "mode confusion".
https://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/fm/papers/ModeConfusionAnalysi...
What? The benefit of CarPlay is that I can use my map app of choice. Apple Maps, Google Maps, Waze, whatever. In 5 years of daily driving I rarely used Tesla’s maps and opted for my phone connected via Bluetooth.
The difference between changing to a different input source or changing a track or adjusting the audio settings between the two is night and day. I don't have to have my phone plugged into a USB port, which is flaky. The Lexus automatically goes back to the map after a few seconds.
I don't understand the appeal of having your car screen be a dumb terminal for your phone. Maybe it's better if you use Spotify or Apple Music or something, I don't know.
I get into a rental car, I connect my iPhone and use CarPlay, I don’t have to worry about leaving my contacts data behind or anything else, and I am already familiar with the UX.
That is why Tesla and Rivian and GM don’t offer CarPlay, even though it is free and easy to implement. They don’t want people to be able to easily switch cars, they don’t want to just be a fungible appliance.
But as a consumer, I do want them to be a fungible appliance.
And lack of CarPlay, especially due to how convenient SharePlay is with other car passengers.
Autopilot has also been sufficiently good for the price at which the car is sold at. At $40k, I did not find a competitor with a better version of lane assist.
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/02/vw-ditches-base-2025-id-4-...
I was comparing a 3 row model Y AWD with tow hitch to AWD Pro ID.4 and ID.4 was coming in close to $50k, both with the federal tax credit. And the ID.4 lacked the 3rd row seating. I am also biased against European vehicles because I assume they will be more maintenance/expensive. I had a bunch of people recommend Model Y to me, and I trusted Tesla's electric vehicle making experience more than VW.
But it’s crazy to claim Model 3 and Y are not competitively priced products that are usable for many, many people.
And I will also say I would not currently pay extra for a high end Tesla. But on the cheap end, and with the far superior buying experience without a stealership in the middle, it is welcome competition to the incumbent automakers.
You should upload a video of yourself doing it. Do it right now if it’s not a Nazi salute.
I’ll wait for your upload.
Lucid, Rivian, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and BMW all have design studios in California. They don’t all have this problem.
Do we really think that Tesla engineers and product managers have never seen rain or snow before? And if so what kind of lame excuse is that?
Aren’t some of Tesla’s biggest markets in cold weather climates? Places like Canada, New England, Scandinavia, Germany, and China (Beijing).
I have a Model Y and a Toyota Highlander (so not just accustomed to the hostility), and I prefer the hands-off approach in the Tesla. No reason to lie.
I also don’t see much reason to buy a Tesla in 2025. There are better quality interiors for less money. The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!) and that is only relevant on a racetrack to push the car to it’s limits. Any normal EV is plenty quick for daily driving.
Tesla base (no extra cost) acceleration is really good for anyone but speed junkies. I’ve had plenty of people (non-gear heads, non-speed junkies) white knuckle when I showed them what my model y is capable of.
The best part is that the acceleration is punchy all the way from 0 to about 105-110mph.
Other than that, I think the “religious wars” over Teslas give folks a warped view of reality. My comments to anyone who is thinking of getting one:
- Test drive one for yourself — this will be the most telling. Sometimes the showroom will let you borrow one over night. I knew I was getting mine after about 2 minutes of a test drive.
- Learn about the controls. Reading the manual helps when you get one… there are tons of cool, functional features.
- Try to go in with an open-but-critical mind. If you test drive with an overly negative disposition, you will almost certainly hate it. If you go in with an overly positive disposition, you will be blind to potential faults (e.g., for me, a yoke steering wheel that some models have is a no-go).
Note that refreshed model y is coming out in May or so, and it seems like the options they chose are fairly optimized.
On my model y and (I think) the new model y releasing in May:
1. Physical controls (stalk button and scroll wheel)
2. Stalk
3. Voice or top level of screen, although the auto-temp is good for me 99% of the time
The extent to which some folks fixate on these issues (at least for the model y) makes me think “religious war” or “neurodivergent”. It’s unnecessary fear-mongering.
I've been hearing for years from Tesla fans about how perfectly amazing the cars are but I doubt they will suddenly be right after yet another redesign.
Many people just hate touch screen controls. Maybe that is kind of a religious war with car enthusiasts, like auto vs manual. But a lack physical controls are a huge deal for some people. It's like if a dev tool doesn't have a cli.
I'm not even a car enthusiast and I refuse to get a car without decent physical controls.
Interesting choices. None of those are driving controls.
Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks. What about cruise control and related functions?
If you must stop suddenly on a motorway, the hazard lights give additional warning to following vehicles. Switch them on as soon as possible. This is especially important in low visibility or at night.
Fans are also essential. You obviously don't live in a climate where the windscreen can fog up unexpectedly.
> the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".
Volume - scroll wheel
Heating - voice or screen, screen can be top screen for most functions (it’s editable for most-used functions)
Fans - same as heating, adjusting direction is top screen
Hazards - physical button near rear view mirror
> Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks.
Lights - stalk
Wipers - stalk and scroll wheel
> What about cruise control and related functions?
Autopilot (adaptive cruise control with lane assist) - right stalk and scroll wheel
Note: Article isn’t opening for me (hug of death), so I can’t refer to it.
I haven’t had to change heat/cool settings, I have it set to 70F and I haven’t had to adjust it.
I don’t think there’s any other modern car getting so much scrutiny. Ironically it is making it so much better than competitors they basically have no chance to catch up.
[0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-best-sell...
[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62919131/tesla-has-highes...
https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1gyznda/t...
Would you take that bet?
And just from visual inspection, it is evident that there are numerous surprises with the iSeeCars study that are difficult to explain. For example, why is there such a huge difference between Model 3 and Y fatality rates even though the cars are similar in most respects?
Another thing to note is that the number of fatalities is only a handful, often under 10 in a year. The standard deviation of the Poisson distribution would already give error bars of 30% at least, making direct comparisons between models meaningless.
Finally, if you read the accident reports, most of the fatalities are head on collisions with drunk drivers and not wearing seatbelts. Having physical controls for hvac or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Because money?
Nobody's that naive.
Someone's been sleeping for last 12 months
Like 40% of people used to smoke. 40% of people are obese today. I’m not comparing these things to teslas in terms of harm (though funding musk is societal harm) but they prove that consumers can make very very bad choices and IMO do all the time
The vocal minority acts as a valid canary, probably most of the time.
Sorry, we all have our opinions and perspective, but money isn't the only value judgement.
I want my speedo in my easy line of vision on any vehicle I drive. I want to be able to demist my windscreen by reaching for a button I can find without taking my eyes off the road.
Just because people buy something doesn't mean they love every aspect of it.
We recently switched to an ID Buzz because our family outgrew the Y. The interior is a huge improvement over the Y (which, fair, it is a more expensive vehicle) and CarPlay is just objectively better than Tesla’s infotainment, but the rest of the software is pretty meh. I really miss a lot of little things like phone keys and a built in dash cam, though.
The one thing that I think should be improved in all cars is that I want to use the AC auto settings but still have the air come out of the bottom vents and not into my face only.
A well designed user interface for an automobile should be discoverable and intuitive for anyone that’s driven a car previously.
My argument would be that 'tools' should be designed solely with the purpose of enabling them to work in the most effective way possible. That is often not immediately intuitive at all. Go open up e.g. Unreal Engine and you're going to struggle to do literally anything. Maybe after an hour you might figure out how to put a square on the map. The same is true of something like Maya or any other really powerful tool.
Obviously things should not be unnecessarily hostile, but it often simply turns out that there are 'revolutionary' ways to do things that weren't really done in the past, and so somebody coming from that past will often find themselves out of their domain, at least for a few moments until they learn and/or have things explained.
A car is not a 3D modeling or game world building system. They’re functionally much simpler and don’t really benefit from added control complexity.
I could accept that to never repeat the "mistake" as an apology from VW. But what about those who were supportive of it? We could go back to HN / Twitter history and read more than half of comments at the time thinks physical buttons are old and dump, Tesla has the future done right. That was in the mid 2010s.
Every single time those loud and hype constantly and consistently have it wrong. And every single time, like a PR machine they would go and hype the next wrong thing. But no one would hold them accountable. And the cycle repeats.
Because of that we have suffer from absolute crap over the past 10 years from Car manufacturers. We are lucky a few Japanese Cars manufacture hasn't caught the hype and stood ground. Thank You Mazda.
laughs in Mazda
https://electrek.co/2022/05/27/tesla-owners-less-likely-cras...
So we can conclude you are saying is not true at least as absolutely as you claim. Touch screen interfaces are not fundamentally less safe.
Other car makers only see the initial sales and jump on the wagon to copy and undo what was learned over many years to be safer only to then creep back many years later.
Same thing with Apple and removing the ESC key in favor of the touch bar or only having USB-C ports on a power user laptop with video over USB-C still being uncommon in conference rooms.
So much wasted time and resources.
Soon we will have removable batteries in phones and there will be people that have never seen this before...
At least no one died not being able to plug in their laptop in a conference room but someone probably did die operating the AC and hitting a deer because they had to look down.
These workflows, from quickly adjusting lcd brightness or toggling bluetooth to utilizing functionality in the Maps app, have devolved from almost-total muscle memory with one or two taps to multiple times that and all over the place on the smartphone display.
People are obviously going to use their phones and heavily navigate with Maps while driving, no matter how much PSAs and campaigning happen. It's sort of like the developers are causing car accidents in the name of shipping off their users' engagement metrics back to the mothership.
The one thing that struck me configuring my spare Samsung first time was this approach of hiding setting under sub-screens. For example how you can handle Wifi in One UI: you go to settings, in connections section you have Wifi entry with switcher. An entry that look like static combines 2 options. Tapping on text opens sub-screen with another on/off toggle and advanced setting hidden under three-dotted menu. Then, once you connect to a network editing its settings doesn't open by tapping on network name but by sprocket on right. And if you want to change ip, dns settings that's another tap below under drop-down section. Of course this is all approach for demanding users and regular ones will handle stuff from pulled-down notifications widgets but still - mos of the stuff is indeed deeply hidden.
Very much this. My favorite is so small, but so, so silly. Google Play used to have a search bar at the top of the home screen. If you click it now, a little message pops up saying search has moved to a different tab. So you click that tab and STILL have to click the same area of the screen to perform a search. So many moronic design choices at these companies.
I followed some introductory course to UX a few years ago, and this seems to go against the very essence of what I remember of it, which is mainly "put things where the user expects them, officialize the desire paths"...
Updates break older apps, change the UI/UX, it's really an interesting situation we're in at the moment.
Edit: Clarified "them"
Everyone should own a car window breaking tool, like a resqme. https://resqme.com/
Tesla arrogance was shown with their semi truck design with the drivers seat in the middle of the cab.
[1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/four-die-trapped-burning-tesla
How does that ever get past safety standards?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peETCNekXSs
(There was actually another HN thread about this recently - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39691780).
I keep a Resqme in the car glovebox - my other half used to do a lot of interstate driving, and I was always worried she'd be trapped in the car. The Resqme has both a seat-belt cutter, and also a centre-punch for easily breaking the side windows.
Although a tiny piece of ceramic at just the right speed will shatter any window.
And I recommend a spring-loaded window breaker, as opposed to having to, like, physically hit the thing against the window.
It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on stuff that was already happening in industry.
Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much cheaper because you can the same thing and then software define the function.
Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all functions.
I do not like Tesla since they began making cars, and declared that "8 cameras should be enough for everybody". While I like trains a lot, I don't prefer hype trains and popular lines.
> It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on stuff that was already happening in industry.
They went all in because they needed velocity, and everybody panicked and copied them without understanding the problems. Even Ford (the company which has a special simulator to measure cognitive loads of the dashboards they design) did the same mistake, without looking for the problems first, like Radon water jugs.
> Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much cheaper because you can the same thing and then software define the function.
> Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all functions.
I know. It's always about the monies, not the consumer or technology or whatnot. Enshittification, IOW.
If it is expensive too, then they become a fanboy!
How else could the industry pour out bigger and bigger crap with huge earnings otherwise? Poeple love shiny and famous crap!
The rest is just PR to sell inferiority as a feature.
The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical for anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn. Anywhere the road system uses roundabouts for instance.
To some extent this is just US parochialism leaking out into the rest of the world, but it's typical of Musk style design to not really think through the reasons for existing design choices.
It takes a special combination of hubris and immaturity to just cast much of that aside without very careful and thorough consideration. The results of doing so speak for themselves.
They now reverted that back in the Model Y refresh. Just the indicator stalk (the rest are still gone)
I've driven one with an indicator stalk.
> Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical for anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn. Anywhere the road system uses roundabouts for instance.
... but it was "smart" and didn't physically move and it was useless except for 90 degree turns. I call this the "designed in California" disease.
Incidentally, we should be glad Apple abandoned their car plans too.
Yes. Teslas used to have a proper indicator stick.
They sacrificed usability for stupid and superficial appearances, those idiots!
They do use touch screen functions --- but mainly for setup and configuration --- not for basic controls while driving.
It's illegal to use a touch screen phone while driving in many areas --- and for good reasons. So why is it ok and legal for manufacturers to mandate the use of their built-in touch screen while driving? Seems contradictory to me.
I love my Ioniq I think a lot of ways it’s a better package than Tesla’s but I still miss the physical buttons from my Honda. I can’t get close to a button and find the right one by feel when it’s a capacitive panel
I regularly drive a fairly new Elantra where all the essential driving controls are still physical with tactile feedback.
My favorite is the environmental control. A single, big easy to find knob to adjust the temperature without your eyes leaving the road. Turn left (counter-clockwise) for colder, right for hotter. The car takes it from there and selects heat or a/c as needed with an appropriate fan speed. You can still adjust manually but I rarely do so.
Emphasis on 'overall package'
I don't know how any auto designer could both regularly drive a car and not immediately reject the idea of eliminating physical controls for wipers/lights/temp control/sound system.
Everything was a button/knob.
Probably the best car instrument panel I've ever used/seen.
https://i0.wp.com/saabblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sa...
(Quite simple - kills all instrument lights except speedo. If something happens which requires your attention, the relevant instrument comes back to life. Makes driving in the dark much less exhausting)
IIRC, the instrument panel was design by Saab aerospace division.
https://cdn.elferspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/16/ABE8...
Countering the hidden/inaccessible nature of touch screen buttons is the obvious point but also the return to physical buttons stops engineers from randomly moving controls with each new software update - that's what ruins things with much regular desktop software: you learn something, the layout is committed to memory and then three months later the feature is moved!
It's then massively harder to find - you almost never find yourself thinking "ah thank you for moving that, now it's better!"
The car was totaled on the freeway, so I bought a new Pontiac Firebird stick. One day, I stepped on the clutch, turned the key to start it, and nothing happened. Oh crud. I tried all kinds of things, it was totally dead. Suddenly, the engine did turn over and run.
It turns out, there was a switch behind the pedal, and you had to press the pedal all the way to the floor to trip the switch which enabled the starter circuit.
Some things were just too clever for me!
Jesus of piston rings, forgive them, for they know not what wear they put on their bearing surfaces
With a manual transmission it is possible to start the engine without the starter if the car is moving. You press the clutch, put the transmission into whatever gear makes sense for the speed, release the clutch briefly. You can do it from a dead stop by pushing the car if you're on a level surface, on a hill, or at highway speed.
Most cars for decades now have had some form of disabling the starter unless the clutch is pressed, and pressed all the way.
That does make sense in the normal case when the car is not moving. If the car is parked, you usually do not want the starter to make the car move. If the clutch is not pressed all the way, then the car might move when the starter turns over the engine.
That car apparently also disabled the ignition, or maybe they were trying to use the starter instead of pop starting. Can't tell which from what they said. You could do it either way in that situation where the car is already moving at higway speed.
"Don't allow starter without clutch" isn't always right though, just usually. It can be useful to intentionally use the starter to move the car. My 97 4runner has a factory button on the dash specifically to allow the starter to run without pressing the clutch one time. (it resets for each turn of the key) Instead of disabling the spark, in this vehicle they disable the starter if the clutch isn't pressed. Turn the key all the way and the starter just doesn't go.
The option to override that is intended for getting the vehicle unstuck from mud by using the starter motor to craw very slow in low gear, slower than the engine can go. But I only ever use it to start in neutral without getting into and back out of the car, usually to warm it up in winter but sometimes while working on it or wanting the engine for electricity temporarily while camping or working or something.
Automatic gears are a great thing. I live in Europe so I learned to drive using manual gears. I find driving automatic gears is less stressful and easier. I kind of prefer it.
Anyway, electric cars have no need for gears / clutches. And they have regenerative braking. One pedal operation is pretty nice.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/03/carmakers-must-bring-ba...
https://phonewire.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/ne210_kx_nt...
https://www.instagram.com/p/CKb34qtg0cf/?igsh=MTc3Y3Jpc2gwbD...
We just got a clean 2013 Honda CR-V (loaded LX-L model) and it's got buttons & knobs (and dial gauges!). Really nice car, it feels like a Lexus inside.
There is a small touchscreen, but it's mainly for the XM radio & Nav.
Anything more than that should work with voice command -- or it doesn't belong in a car.
Our secondary, very short trip car, is an old 2008 VW Polo and although it has physical AC and recycle air buttons, they chose to make them be toggle buttons as opposed to ones you can feel/see are pressed in or not.
They have a backlight to indicate their “on” status but (and maybe it’s worse because it’s old) you can’t see the backlight in bright sunlight and I have to shadow them with my hand to see.
The final annoyance with this is if I turn off the car with the fan speed turned to “off”, when I next start the car it has forgotten the on/off state of each of the two buttons.
So these buttons, although being physical, are almost as bad as soft touch buttons. If they had just made them buttons which are either pressed in or out, all these annoyances wouldn’t exist.
Obviously the Polos would have changed completely now, but I haven’t checked VWs much though as in South Africa you get considerably less car for your money compared to most other brands, but VWs still seem pretty popular for what I can only guess is status symbol reasons.
And it gets even more clear when you enter the present days and add additional inputs like voice control or defaults associated with a personal keyfob.
This is manufacturers inventing a meaningless distinction.
The value of controls that perfectly implement your wishes is not great over controls that you just fucken set, even without the terrible ergonomics that the former brings.
I can understand them in phones, tablets or other small and generic devices, trading ergonomy for portability; the net effect on UX could be positive. But in the context of cars (i.e. large and specialized) I see only net negative UX.
All that money that didn't go into the drive train (because all the parts of a high performance ICE drivetrain aren't that much different from those of, say, a Dacia), it went into maintaining an absolutely large zoo of upsell options.
Do we consider things like air conditioning, heated seats and so on something the driver absolutely needs to change while they drive?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX3rRntdyYc
We now need stricter regulations to what extend car makers can embrace the "Software Defined Vehicle" vision without compromising safety. It must be ensured that the driver isn't playing with the touch screen during drive (in non autonomous driving mode) for longer than few seconds.
'Apple' aesthetic is the worst thing to have happened to industrial design.
Dedicated buttons are far easier and faster to operate. Plus if your tablet cracks open you can still control most features. (I think).
For a while I drove some bigger pickup trucks. (Long ago). They often bragged that the knobs and buttons were big enough to be operated with gloves on.
Pretty great when it is cold out. and really easy to operate too.
Modern cars do need a lot more buttons so making them smaller is nessescary.
Reminds me of the guy who used to work with me. He would get on and on about how people don’t need cars because he can manage on a bicycle everywhere. Everywhere being a gym, work and a university. His whole world was about 10km².
At least my GLI has a physical volume knob and physical heater controls.
For some of us a car ride is how we zen out. If you make them anti-zen you will lose customer goodwill.
I’m still a little mad at VW for dieselgate but real buttons puts them back on the list.
Climate control (albeit shared between media with a button to switch between the two), heated seats, heated steering wheel, various buttons on the steering wheel. Heck, add in Carplay with Siri and I rarely, if ever, have to touch the screen on a drive.
I'd love for the backup cam to be integrated with the mirror as a standard feature. It's available aftermarket. Then a screen isn't really needed at all. It's just one more expensive thing that can break. It would be nice to be able to swap it out with a sub $200 head unit like the good old days.
Car audio was my intro to DC electronic systems in the 90's and I learned a ton from it.
<https://web.archive.org/web/20040403224019/http://www.urbanl...>
(And decades later I simrace barefoot where there is essentially no useful pedal feel... in VR, so all physical interactions are completely blind - no touchscreens!)
It's illegal in some places?
I'm in India and I learnt to and mostly always drive barefoot. If I try to drive with shoes it just doesn't feel right. I can't get the tactile feedback right. Have to get used to it I suppose. But then I don't really wear shoes that much (slippers do just fine for most of my day)
Or go on a long trip to somewhere more northern and you'll have to either learn to drive in thick boots or freeze.
For private drivers it is not illegal per se. But if you have an accident, they (police, prosecution, insurance) will quickly blame it on unfit shoewear.
There is (legally accepted) consensus in Germany and Austria that a regular, closed shoe without heels gives you best control.
Barefoot is IMHO treated unfairly, if you're used to drive barefoot. And living in a country where people wear shoes most of the time, they will assume you're not used to it.
For the hills I use shoes with a soft sole to “feel the road.”
At least in Europe most Ford models also have kept most of their physical buttons.
Not mentioned: wipers, shifter, and signals. Everyone here should consider these vital to driving the car.
Touchscreen had to be added, during the big move from buttons to touchscreen. It didn't just appear out of thin air.
(Not) Having physical buttons then is a cost factor.
That said. It would have been nice if they had made the plastic a bit more premium. The cheap shiny chreaking plastic isn't great. The redeeming feature is the swipe feature for me.
Good buttons will be better.
Cheap plastic crap will review well but won't necessarily be any better to use for me, at least for the steering column buttons.
Does no work?
Fine, it's settled, no it is.