The main link in the thread appears to have been taken over by a malicious entity.
arcanemachiner 195 days ago [-]
dang replaced it with an archive link and pinned a comment at the top telling the story. What a G.
stuartjohnson12 194 days ago [-]
I've never seen a forum moderator of a place as full of anxious nerds as Hacker News steward a ship this well. May we all aspire to Dang's heights.
hnlmorg 195 days ago [-]
I know I’m missing the obvious here, but is this a terminal multiplexer (like tmux)? Or a tiling terminal emulator (like iTerm, et al)?
Retr0id 195 days ago [-]
Neither, it's its own thing. Most similar to tmux, but you interact with it more like you'd interact with a graphical window manager.
pancsta 195 days ago [-]
So tmux with floating panes and drag-n-drop.
safety1st 195 days ago [-]
The Youtube video embedded on their Github is titled "Tiling Window Manager with Drag&Drop" and from watching it, that appears to be exactly what this is. I don't know if or why it artificially constrains itself to only opening terminals.
o-sdn-o 194 days ago [-]
It's scary to do something more complex than a terminal emulator until the architecture is unstable. In case of small changes we will have to rewrite a lot. You can play with a couple of built-in demo apps 'vtm --run text', 'vtm --run calc', 'vtm --run test', 'vtm --run truecolor'. You can also run it directly inside the vtm desktop by typing vtm.desktop.Run({ type='calc' }) in the command line of 'Log Monitor'.
colecut 195 days ago [-]
The whole thing runs inside of a terminal, it would be hard to open anything else
smackeyacky 195 days ago [-]
Reminds me a lot of the Apollo workstation.
russfink 194 days ago [-]
That makes two of us.
cryptonector 195 days ago [-]
With tiling, I think.
accrual 195 days ago [-]
We've come full circle. We invented a GUI to replace the TUI, then reimplemented the GUI in the TUI. Long live the terminal!
ninetyninenine 195 days ago [-]
We've done it twice. Many terminals run under electron or equivalent browser interfaces. So we've implemented TUI in the GUI as well!
hnlmorg 195 days ago [-]
That’s also applies to literally every terminal emulator written since xterm.
Most of the modern terms these days have GPU acceleration too.
ninetyninenine 195 days ago [-]
No. This isn’t true. Most terminals are native. They don’t run under a browser engine.
hnlmorg 195 days ago [-]
A browser engine isn’t a prerequisite for something using a graphical framework nor running on a desktop environment
ninetyninenine 194 days ago [-]
Ah I see what you mean. I mean it’s all pixels in the end right? and pixels are primitives for guis. So then the root primitive is in actuality the gui.
194 days ago [-]
tomxor 194 days ago [-]
That sounds like the worst thing ever. So many good native terminals to choose from why ruin it with electron.
cmrdporcupine 195 days ago [-]
Revenge of DESQview
nxobject 195 days ago [-]
It’s funny - I think of DESQView/X, their fully compliant X11 server complete with both Motif and OpenLook. The exact opposite of vanilla DESQview.
leejoramo 195 days ago [-]
I used DESQview for a number of years, and always think about it when see new TUI systems
I tried to use desqview but it was too slow on my 386 33mhz machine… not sure how much RAM it had back then but I recall it was the bottleneck and swapping to disk caused everything to lag.
lproven 195 days ago [-]
I think you are confusing old memories here.
DESQview did not do any memory management of its own, and it did not use graphics. It was entirely local and had no networking. It was famously fast. It was a DOS multitasker so it managed DOS tasks, meaning multiple slots of 640kB. On a 386 with 4MB of RAM you could have 6 full-size DOS VMs with a bit left over.
If you were a power user you could still have say a big 1-2-3 spreadsheet in EMS plus a few DOS VMs.
DESQview delegated memory management to QEMM386, and QEMM386 did not do swapping. It didn't need to.
DESQview/X was a totally different product, with a full GUI, so much bigger and slower -- and it added an optional extension that added full virtual memory with swapping to disk.
I am wondering if you are mixing up DESQview (small, fast, local) with DV/x (big, complicated, networked, had optional VM)?
Or indeed DV/x with something else altogether? OS/2 maybe?
Because if it was swapping, it wasn't DESQview, not in any normal sane config anyway. It might be possible to add DV/x VM to plain old DESQview but I never heard of anyone doing that.
throwawayForMe2 194 days ago [-]
I also remember the first version of Smalltalk from Digitalk that was character based and windowed. It was called Methods. I can’t seem to find any reference to it on the web now.
igouy 194 days ago [-]
"Methods, our character-based Smalltalk, is now available for $79- It has all of the features of Smalltalk/V except graphics, rules, source-level debugger, and object-swapping. However, it supports color, includes the communication package, and does not require a mouse."
Just like whenever I see someone praising Ratatui, what comes to my mind is Turbo Vision, Clipper and curses.
pantulis 195 days ago [-]
The demo video has a lot of Borland's Turbo Vision vibes.
pjmlp 194 days ago [-]
It was a great framework, it was my path into OOP, after learning it previously in TP 5.5 (TV was released alongside TP 6, and Borland C++ 3.0), and its design was quite pragmatic.
pantulis 192 days ago [-]
Sure, it was awesome, it was also my first exposure to OOP but I think for a beginner it was slightly too deep and I ended up doing things without knowing what I was doing... although they worked.
fragmede 195 days ago [-]
run it through aalib for good measure
CaffeineLD50 195 days ago [-]
Totes.
hidelooktropic 195 days ago [-]
Yeah. Am I missing the point that this leans so far into being as capable as a GUI as it can, that we lose something from starting in the terminal in the first place?
fmxsh 194 days ago [-]
I was exploring why Linux terminal environment is so powerful compared to Windows terminal. Windows is built at the kernel level to support graphics and GUI, while *nix systems are built with terminal at the core. Thus Windows historically has had way more powerful GUIs. They are two different domains of power. Each of them also trying to do what the other does better.
pjmlp 194 days ago [-]
Every desktop OS has been like that, UNIX is the exception, as it was originally designed for a timesharing headless system.
And with exception of command.com, most have had good CLI shells, without having to pretend being a teletype, like UNIX ones.
Amiga DOS with REXX was great, Oberon REPL, Smalltalk Transcript, Interlisp-D REPL, Xerox Star Mesa XDE,....
-__---____-ZXyw 194 days ago [-]
Interesting perspective. I've poked at the medley interlisp revival project, as well as glamorous toolkit, and cuis, but hadn't heard about most of the things you mention here. Will be investigating.
TheLockranore 195 days ago [-]
I use terminal specifically to not need a mouse. I use a great many TUI tools, but this one is never going to be one of them.
shric 195 days ago [-]
If it had i3/sway tiling behaviour/bindings, that would be great.
CaesarA 195 days ago [-]
I always wondered if it was possible to have a TUI-style window manager inside the terminal. This is a fantastic project, whoever made it did a great job.
nine_k 195 days ago [-]
My TUI desktop environment, complete with a tiling window manager, is called Emacs %) I suppose Vim can offer a comparable experience.
celsius1414 194 days ago [-]
To paraphrase the old vim joke, emacs will be great once they add a text editor. ;)
CaffeineLD50 195 days ago [-]
The demo looks great but I'm twice shy from having been bitten a few times.
A little bit actually, yeah. This looks great, thanks.
fmxsh 194 days ago [-]
Looks very smooth!
However, from my perspective, the extensive need to drag windows around and resize them is a habit of windows environment. So, perhaps, this is for the mouse what tmux and Neovim are for the keyboard.
In tmux, the window layouts I need are fixed sets of 2x2 panes, with some predefined ways of resizing them and toggling full-screen. With effective tools like telescope and nvim, the need to line all windows up disapears, because the switching is so efficient and I have more of a mental picture than a visual one of what's available. For example, no need for the file tree commonly to the left in most IDEs.
haolez 194 days ago [-]
I thought like you in the past. Today, for some reason, I value defaults and reducing my cognitive load so that I can think more and do less. Even Eclipse would work for me nowadays :P
fmxsh 194 days ago [-]
I remember Eclipse! That was something like 20 years ago I used it last time. Thanks for bringing back some memories.
Setting up an efficient terminal environment is overwhelming. I do it as a hobby and enjoy the tinkering. Thanks to GPT the process is quicker. But I spent a lot of time just setting up a basic environment.
gjvc 195 days ago [-]
There was something similar a few years ago which ran over an ssh connection and had a zoomable ui of sorts. I can't find the link -- does this ring a bell anywhere?
qrobit 195 days ago [-]
I don't completely understand what is meant by "zooming", but kitty[^1] does that: you open ssh connection with `kitten ssh user@host` and pressing <C-Enter> will open another ssh pane in the same tab, you can than IIRC <C-F> to "zoom" and make tab take full window
It really is tragedy that there aren't more ZUIs in the wild. I'd love a compositor (X11 or Wayland; it's probably not just a wm) that made all windows arbitrarily zoomable, but I lack the skill to make it myself.
nix0n 195 days ago [-]
Zooming all windows at once exists as a Gnome shell extension.
Probably it would be possible to zoom one window at once as a shell extension.
smusamashah 195 days ago [-]
It was this very tool. It could be sshed into with
ssh vtm@netxs.online
That domain is dead now
gjvc 195 days ago [-]
Hooray, thank you!
When I said "zooming" I was thinking of the white tethers attached to each window which would pull them back into a centre bundle. You can see what I mean here: https://changelog.com/news/a-textbased-desktop-environment-i... at the bottom left, the lines going off to a single point.
actually, by zooming out, I can still see the tethers on the windows. The ssh version was quite mind-blowing back when...
o-sdn-o 195 days ago [-]
This is the same thing as the public demo back then via 'ssh vtm@netxs.online'. There are no public demo servers running now, but you can still ssh to your running vtm instance with any number of connections. In case of using MS Windows you can even get the output in a standalone GUI window via 'vtm ssh user@unixserver vtm'.
gjvc 194 days ago [-]
am I imagining it, or were there more features in the original public demo?
o-sdn-o 194 days ago [-]
There were demo apps in the menu, they are still there: 'vtm --run text', 'vtm --run calc', 'vtm --run test', 'vtm --run truecolor'... You can play with it by running them directly inside the vtm desktop, by typing (or right click to paste) commands like vtm.desktop.Run({ type='calc' }) in the 'Log Monitor' command line.
o-sdn-o 194 days ago [-]
Now vtm is the same as it was running on demo servers. In the modern version, the fading effects and window shadows are disabled by default in the settings. Perhaps the fading effects were removed as unnecessary.
deadbabe 195 days ago [-]
I wish some web apps would adopt this pure text design language
The text heavy emphasis in the UI is one of the things that I used to love in the Windows Phone
VanillaCafe 195 days ago [-]
Trying to understand it... if by comparison I'm using tmux then switching to something like this adds mouse based window (panel) management?
dmd 195 days ago [-]
I'd love to see some of these ideas folded into Zellij.
lostmsu 195 days ago [-]
Potentially relevant for using this vs GUI for remote access: AV1 can compress 4k+ screen casts in real time to under 500kbps while keeping text legible.
CaffeineLD50 195 days ago [-]
This looks unbelievably bad ass.
I cant wait to try it.
jimmydddd 195 days ago [-]
Who is the target user for this?
Defletter 195 days ago [-]
Assuming this works over SSH, then presumably people who are literate with a terminal but prefer GUIs.
rangerelf 195 days ago [-]
It does (work over ssh).
Pretty neat: reconnect to the host and you see all the terminals you left open.
johnisgood 195 days ago [-]
Damn, that would be quite cool.
munk-a 195 days ago [-]
People who were looking for a TTRPG in the modern setting and ended up being deeply confused and converting their entire computer environment into a powerful runic device that requires complex incantations - though maybe those folks would have been better off looking for Mage the Ascension.
yjftsjthsd-h 195 days ago [-]
> and converting their entire computer environment into a powerful runic device that requires complex incantation
I already have a Linux machine, but yes this looks like a nice addition;)
CaffeineLD50 195 days ago [-]
Crazy text fanatics, lynx browser users, console minimalists, desktop ricers, AI fearing cult members: the usual suspects.
thesuitonym 195 days ago [-]
People who think it is cool, I guess.
hambes 194 days ago [-]
honest question, since i really like the idea but don't understand the implementation:
what use is a text-based desktop environment, if it requires a graphical interface and cannot run in a tty?
o-sdn-o 194 days ago [-]
Not all platorm-specific tty's are supported by vtm. See the list of supported terminals.
195 days ago [-]
dgsm98 195 days ago [-]
When I first read this, I thought this was an open source project by DirectTV
joshu 195 days ago [-]
has anyone tried building it from source?
o-sdn-o 195 days ago [-]
Building with gcc requires ~4Gb of RAM; clang requires ~8Gb. Due to memory requirements, building vtm for a 32-bit target is only possible using cross-compilation. In addition, cmake downloads Lua sources during the build process.
joshu 194 days ago [-]
machine is big enough, i'm getting syntax errors in tile.hpp
dalenw 194 days ago [-]
I just built it on macos 15.3.1 without issues, if that helps.
o-sdn-o 194 days ago [-]
Most likely you need to update the compiler you are using.
joshu 186 days ago [-]
interesting. didn't build on an up-to-date ubuntu box. i will try on a mac
o-sdn-o 186 days ago [-]
If there are any issues with compilation, please describe them in vtm github repository, we will try to solve it.
mixmastamyk 195 days ago [-]
Now that we have high resolution, millions of colors, and unicode in our terminals, this is the logical conclusion.
Still doesn't make a lot of sense, but I like it. :-D
Been using Zellij for awhile and it is delightful! I am only a moderate terminal user, but I really like having some basic multiplexing features if I need them. My brain just could not hold onto the necessary tmux key combos with only intermittent use. Instead I find the Zellij commands to be more intuitive (and more discoverable thanks to the handy prompts...)
CaffeineLD50 193 days ago [-]
Open man page for tmux. Search for split window.
Launch tmux and split window. Open man page for tmux in 2nd window.
Its not hard.
meepmeepinator 195 days ago [-]
[flagged]
otherayden 195 days ago [-]
Thanks, ChatGPT
jacobegold 195 days ago [-]
I feel like an LLM agent could grok and interact with something like this pretty well...
Rendered at 00:22:25 GMT+0000 (UTC) with Wasmer Edge.
Most of the modern terms these days have GPU acceleration too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DESQview
DESQview did not do any memory management of its own, and it did not use graphics. It was entirely local and had no networking. It was famously fast. It was a DOS multitasker so it managed DOS tasks, meaning multiple slots of 640kB. On a 386 with 4MB of RAM you could have 6 full-size DOS VMs with a bit left over.
If you were a power user you could still have say a big 1-2-3 spreadsheet in EMS plus a few DOS VMs.
DESQview delegated memory management to QEMM386, and QEMM386 did not do swapping. It didn't need to.
DESQview/X was a totally different product, with a full GUI, so much bigger and slower -- and it added an optional extension that added full virtual memory with swapping to disk.
I am wondering if you are mixing up DESQview (small, fast, local) with DV/x (big, complicated, networked, had optional VM)?
Or indeed DV/x with something else altogether? OS/2 maybe?
Because if it was swapping, it wasn't DESQview, not in any normal sane config anyway. It might be possible to add DV/x VM to plain old DESQview but I never heard of anyone doing that.
magazine page 97
https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1986-10/page/n108/...
And with exception of command.com, most have had good CLI shells, without having to pretend being a teletype, like UNIX ones.
Amiga DOS with REXX was great, Oberon REPL, Smalltalk Transcript, Interlisp-D REPL, Xerox Star Mesa XDE,....
It can't just be pretty.
https://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/
However, from my perspective, the extensive need to drag windows around and resize them is a habit of windows environment. So, perhaps, this is for the mouse what tmux and Neovim are for the keyboard.
In tmux, the window layouts I need are fixed sets of 2x2 panes, with some predefined ways of resizing them and toggling full-screen. With effective tools like telescope and nvim, the need to line all windows up disapears, because the switching is so efficient and I have more of a mental picture than a visual one of what's available. For example, no need for the file tree commonly to the left in most IDEs.
Setting up an efficient terminal environment is overwhelming. I do it as a hobby and enjoy the tinkering. Thanks to GPT the process is quicker. But I spent a lot of time just setting up a basic environment.
[1]: <https://sw.kovidgoyal.net/kitty/>
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/7263/better-desktop-z...
Probably it would be possible to zoom one window at once as a shell extension.
ssh vtm@netxs.online
That domain is dead now
When I said "zooming" I was thinking of the white tethers attached to each window which would pull them back into a centre bundle. You can see what I mean here: https://changelog.com/news/a-textbased-desktop-environment-i... at the bottom left, the lines going off to a single point.
actually, by zooming out, I can still see the tethers on the windows. The ssh version was quite mind-blowing back when...
I cant wait to try it.
I already have a Linux machine, but yes this looks like a nice addition;)
what use is a text-based desktop environment, if it requires a graphical interface and cannot run in a tty?
Still doesn't make a lot of sense, but I like it. :-D
Its not hard.