Those designs seem... fine? The imagery seems quite traditional, the largest deviation seems to be the choice of strong unifying colors across whole windows, while having colors that aren't traditional to the rest of Notre-Dame, such as pinks and yellows.
The windows they're replacing seem pretty boring and uninteresting, I can see why they're taking advantage of these renovations to also spruce up these windows with new designs (itself a many centuries long tradition).
For reference, here's the windows that are being replaced:
Lots of complaints about the new windows, but just wait 100-200 years and they’ll be seen as historical items that shouldn’t be replaced as well.
idoubtit 4 days ago [-]
The change was decided by the French president, Emmanuel Macron. The windows were dirty with the fumes but not damaged at all. But he wanted to add some modern art to the monument.
If he manages to leave his own mark on Notre-Dame, the next president could do the same, and the windows won't stay long enough to become historical items.
cjs_ac 4 days ago [-]
As the article notes, the old windows only date back to the nineteenth century.
Reasoning 4 days ago [-]
"In such a project, one cannot act with too much prudence or discretion...A restoration may be more disastrous for a monument than the ravages of centuries." - Eugène Viollet-le-Duc
tptacek 4 days ago [-]
This is a fake controversy. There has always been contemporary art in Notre-Dame. The decision about the windows was made all the way back in 2021.
idoubtit 4 days ago [-]
A "fake controversy", really?
The article mentions that the Venice Charter, which the France signed, "calls for the preservation of original work unless absolutely necessary" (from the OP). Several patrimonial organizations announced legal actions if the present glass windows are removed.
From what I've read, the only actors in favor are changing the undamaged windows are a handful of politicians, from the State or the Church. All the professionals of the domain (old monuments) have rejected it, including the official Committee which unanimously voted against it. Even the Académie des Beaux-Arts, where the designated artist was studying, made its opposition public.
It was not my claim that nobody has managed to manufacture a controversy over this decision, which echoes generations of similar decisions, and which was itself made over 3 years ago.
franklovecchio 3 days ago [-]
A complaint from 2001 regarding the addition of the abstract stained-glass Windows of Cefalù in a Sicilian cathedral:
> In most countries, this kind of modification, based on artistic whim, ceased to be a serious social force by the 1980s. Even allowing for delayed reaction and effect in Sicily, it is surprising that such a proposal could have been taken very seriously in a place that boasts a great historical and artistic heritage.
> With these newest "additions," Cefalù Cathedral is being deprived of that opportunity. The scarlet beast has reared its ugly heads.
It’s odd to me how upset people get about this.
Historic buildings seem very ledger-esque as changes and previous states get documented well and any modification isn’t truly erasing history but just appending to it.
I doubt historians will have much trouble with some additions from our time. In any case, they would be a new historic artifact.
almaight 3 days ago [-]
The rapid reconstruction of Notre-Dame Cathedral stands as a testament to the efficiency and expertise of Chinese engineering. Thanks to the advanced technologies, materials, and construction methods provided by Chinese companies, the rebuilding process has proceeded at an accelerated pace, demonstrating China's significant role in this global heritage project. This swift and effective contribution highlights the reliability and capability of Chinese engineering on the international stage. Therefore, it can be argued that the rebuilt Notre-Dame should bear a 'Made in China' tag, recognizing the pivotal role played by Chinese constructors in achieving such a remarkable feat within an impressively short timeframe.
southernplaces7 4 days ago [-]
The winning artist complies with the right sociopolitically de jure checkboxes, but to her credit, she's at least reasonably talented artistically.
breckinloggins 4 days ago [-]
I don’t like ‘em. Bah.
But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking.
If they prove popular, through, who am I to judge?
uxhacker 4 days ago [-]
What is so sad about this is the windows don't need to be replaced. Original windows hold significant value. While modern replacements typically need replacement within 20-30 years, historic wooden windows can last centuries with proper maintenance. The craftsmanship in older windows often surpasses modern alternatives, making restoration a worthwhile investment for both historical accuracy and longevity.
I restored 189 windows in my 200-year-old house in Poland rather than replacing them. The windows are fundamental to a building's character and historical authenticity. You can date a building by analyzing its window features. The older the house, the fewer and smaller the windows, often due to glass manufacturing limitations and structural needs. For instance, a 16th-century manor might have small, thick-glassed windows with irregular panes, while an 18th-century townhouse would show taller, multi-paned sash windows.
vidarh 4 days ago [-]
The "original windows" in this context are windows 700 years newer than Notre Dame that were themselves part of a significant modernisation, and only a small part of the windows of Notre Dame (about 5% of the windows are being replaced).
The replacement windows are also made by a studio that has a history going back way past the windows being replaced, and a history specifically of restoring historic glass - I very much doubt they'll need replacement within 20-30 years.
The gradual renewal over centuries of renovations and restorations is itself part of the historic legacy of Notre Dame.
cvoss 4 days ago [-]
You have many more important arguments to make against the cathedral's form and structure if it may not be changed, but rather preserved and restored only to its original character. What century does the cathedral belong to, by the way? 12th? 13th? 14th? 19th? ...
There are several centuries of alterations you should revert before you even begin to object to the windows.
And you can hardly expect your claim to be taken seriously that the windows will need replacing in 30 years. It's inconceivable that anyone associated with this singular project would make so foolish and transient an investment right now.
thatfrenchguy 4 days ago [-]
> While modern replacements typically need replacement within 20-30 years
This is complete bullshit you find on the internet though, there are "replacement windows" in my house that are 30 yold and nowhere near needing replacing.
troupo 4 days ago [-]
The new designs are really close to "trad" designs of stained glass which often depicted scenes from the bible, saints etc.
Agreed 100%. I love your phrasing. My initial repose was surprisingly too "trad" for my own liking. Doesn't seem to matter age or supposed wisdom, we are always a work in progress aren't we?
The stained glasses these are supposed to replace are from 1850. They are also approved by the French Catholic Church.
The actual discussion in France is about the legitimacy of replacing intact windows even if pretty much everyone agree that the Viollet-le-Duc ones are completely uninteresting. No one is actually against the new glasses per se if it would have been a non story if they were put in place in place of destroyed glasses.
vidarh 4 days ago [-]
Managing to turn this into a matter of ideology over some false belief that this is "painting modern ideals on antiquity" is quite something.
The replaced glass is not from antiquity but from 19th-century modernization.
EDIT: 19th century, actually; 1800's.
seszett 4 days ago [-]
I don't understand why you would bring mentions of LGBT, pride flags or misogyny into this?
These stained glasses are replacing relatively modern, abstract geometric patterns from the 19th century with figurative religious imagery on the theme of the Pentecost.
I can understand why people don't like it, but... evil?
The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris.
gjsman-1000 4 days ago [-]
I bring up misogyny because it has to do with the glass in question, and use the example of the pyramids, to show that my opinion is principle over message. Don’t tamper with history, good message or not, unless absolutely necessary.
> The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris.
Hitler did; the Nazis on the ground refused.
llamaimperative 4 days ago [-]
What exactly is the "evil ideology" you're pointing to here?
gilleain 4 days ago [-]
The sinister, malicious plot to change all the stained glass windows to other, different windows.
aspenmayer 4 days ago [-]
Have we traded the cathedral for the bazaar?
gjsman-1000 4 days ago [-]
I think the security scares in Linux over the last few years, particularly with the xzutils incident, have shown that The Cathedral and the Bazaar has a significant amount of wishful thinking.
It turns out that most open source projects don’t have any more eyeballs than those paid or volunteering to work on the code, in which case, the gap between open and proprietary isn’t very large at all. Because most open source maintainers aren’t paid, you could even argue there are less good eyeballs than proprietary software.
I’m with Nikolai Bezroukov; who called it a fundamentally broken document decades ago; with many of its assertions based on a pseudo-religious faith.
Could you please stop posting ideological battle comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it a lot. It's tedious, and it's not what this site is for.
It’s quite amazing how you abusive and toxic authoritarian types hide behind framing things in made up terms like “ideological battle comments” and “flamebait” to add a veneer of process authority because you are too scared to simply admit to yourself that, you, the tyrant with all the power and control don’t like something so therefore it is “flamebait” and “ideological battle comments”.
Don’t bother with your veneer of made up terms and condescending and dehumanizing “you’ve unfortunately” … “been doing things I don’t like and I have the power even though I hide behind a process that keeps me believing I’m not the bad person I am”.
Just do it. Just abuse your power like you want to.
Tyrants are tyrants, even when they have “democratic elections” and proclaim how they support free speech as long as it is speech they approve.
Let’s get this done with. You want to abuse all the tools you have to frame and control the speech of others, so just do it. Stop acting like you have some reasonable process to make yourself feel better about what you are.
khazhoux 4 days ago [-]
Are you reviewing some higher-res images of these new windows? Because I couldn't hardly see anything in the small images in the article.
vidarh 4 days ago [-]
Modernism was contemporary with Eugène Viollet-le-Duc, the creator of the windows being replaced, and he is in fact often described as a theoretician of modernism, and an inspiration for people like Le Corbusier - who specifically described Viollet-le-Duc as at the root of the movement - and Frank Lloyd Wright.
You go on to call it "typically contemporarily narcissistic", but the architectural
style of Modernism is not contemporary to us.
Reasoning 4 days ago [-]
It seems bad faith to assume the OP is using the term modernism specifically to refer to the Modernism movement rather than the other use of the word "a practice, usage, or expression peculiar to modern times", per Merriam-Webster.
Also, drawing the connection between Eugène Viollet-le-Duc and Modernism architecture to argue for removing Eugène's glass with a more modern style ignores his own motivation for his restoration which was to restore Notre-Dame to it's original gothic style. The reason Eugène's stained glass is there is because past canons had "modernized" it by replacing the original medieval stained glass with plain white panes.
vidarh 3 days ago [-]
The new glass is more traditional in many way, such as in terms of its subjects.
And there is no meaningful way of restoring Notre-Dame to an "original style" without making it unrecognisable to us - it consists of many hundreds of years of substantial alterations. While Viollet-le-Duc tried to find a compromise that worked, the result is that it is an eclectic 19th century mix of styles that never existed previously.
_DeadFred_ 4 days ago [-]
Not really a fan, I think that Notre Dame's appeal is it's age but holly heck the comments here (and in fact, my grose personal initial response internally of 'there they go forcing...') convinced me these are probably a good and needed change. Though I hope they match the original colors let in.
WTF people? This is a building dedicated to a dude who said 'love everyone' and 'forgive everyone so you can see past judgement and instead see who they truly are and their worth'. Built to be a physical representation of the power/holiness of that ideal. It's easy to love the in-crowd. It's easy to love/understand those we know. But old boy's message was about more than that.
moralestapia 4 days ago [-]
[flagged]
almostnormal 4 days ago [-]
Those windows are not just pieces of art to look at. They do also tint the sunlight, and with that the inside of the cathedral. The proposed new ones each use different colors, which is probably going to cause different parts to be tinted differently.
Should they indeed be replaced, it's a hardeware problem. But by adding computer controled (depeding on sunlight conditions) tinted light bulbs it can be fixed in software.
gjsman-1000 4 days ago [-]
Modernist tomfoolery; we’ll break even international conventions on historical preservation for the sake of a moral anyone can learn by watching a Disney movie.
If it even gets installed, watch in two decades as the old windows are returned once the banal novelty wears off.
troupo 4 days ago [-]
> Modernist tomfoolery; we’ll break even international conventions on historical preservation for the sake of a moral anyone can learn by watching a Disney movie.
Not to mention that the current glass from the 19th century was literally put there by "the father of modern/modernist architecture"
vidarh 4 days ago [-]
Modernism as an art-style is substantially closer in time, to the windows being replaced than to the present day.
Modernist art started in the late 1800's century, and lasted into the early 1900's. Eugène Viollet-le-Duc's restoration of Notre-Dame started in 1844, and Viollet-le-Duc is often hailed as a prominent theoretician of modernism.
Rendered at 12:24:47 GMT+0000 (UTC) with Wasmer Edge.
The windows they're replacing seem pretty boring and uninteresting, I can see why they're taking advantage of these renovations to also spruce up these windows with new designs (itself a many centuries long tradition).
For reference, here's the windows that are being replaced:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Notre_Dame_Cathedr...
If he manages to leave his own mark on Notre-Dame, the next president could do the same, and the windows won't stay long enough to become historical items.
The article mentions that the Venice Charter, which the France signed, "calls for the preservation of original work unless absolutely necessary" (from the OP). Several patrimonial organizations announced legal actions if the present glass windows are removed.
From what I've read, the only actors in favor are changing the undamaged windows are a handful of politicians, from the State or the Church. All the professionals of the domain (old monuments) have rejected it, including the official Committee which unanimously voted against it. Even the Académie des Beaux-Arts, where the designated artist was studying, made its opposition public.
The Guardian has a more detailed article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/28/ludicrous-bitt...
> In most countries, this kind of modification, based on artistic whim, ceased to be a serious social force by the 1980s. Even allowing for delayed reaction and effect in Sicily, it is surprising that such a proposal could have been taken very seriously in a place that boasts a great historical and artistic heritage.
> With these newest "additions," Cefalù Cathedral is being deprived of that opportunity. The scarlet beast has reared its ugly heads.
From: http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art41.htm
If you get a chance, I highly recommend seeing them! They left a mark on me personally that no stained glass had previously.
Some background and pictures:
https://experiencesicily.com/2014/01/11/the-norman-cathedral...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/2564316523
But then again I’m old now and have always been a bit too “trad” for even my own liking.
If they prove popular, through, who am I to judge?
I restored 189 windows in my 200-year-old house in Poland rather than replacing them. The windows are fundamental to a building's character and historical authenticity. You can date a building by analyzing its window features. The older the house, the fewer and smaller the windows, often due to glass manufacturing limitations and structural needs. For instance, a 16th-century manor might have small, thick-glassed windows with irregular panes, while an 18th-century townhouse would show taller, multi-paned sash windows.
The replacement windows are also made by a studio that has a history going back way past the windows being replaced, and a history specifically of restoring historic glass - I very much doubt they'll need replacement within 20-30 years.
The gradual renewal over centuries of renovations and restorations is itself part of the historic legacy of Notre Dame.
And you can hardly expect your claim to be taken seriously that the windows will need replacing in 30 years. It's inconceivable that anyone associated with this singular project would make so foolish and transient an investment right now.
This is complete bullshit you find on the internet though, there are "replacement windows" in my house that are 30 yold and nowhere near needing replacing.
How is this concept: https://media.beauxarts.com/uploads/2024/12/web000_36qn6km.j... worse than the existing windows: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Notre_Da... ?
For reference: https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain...
The actual discussion in France is about the legitimacy of replacing intact windows even if pretty much everyone agree that the Viollet-le-Duc ones are completely uninteresting. No one is actually against the new glasses per se if it would have been a non story if they were put in place in place of destroyed glasses.
The replaced glass is not from antiquity but from 19th-century modernization.
EDIT: 19th century, actually; 1800's.
These stained glasses are replacing relatively modern, abstract geometric patterns from the 19th century with figurative religious imagery on the theme of the Pentecost.
I can understand why people don't like it, but... evil?
The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris.
> The Nazis by the way, intended to destroy Notre Dame together with the rest of Paris.
Hitler did; the Nazis on the ground refused.
It turns out that most open source projects don’t have any more eyeballs than those paid or volunteering to work on the code, in which case, the gap between open and proprietary isn’t very large at all. Because most open source maintainers aren’t paid, you could even argue there are less good eyeballs than proprietary software.
I’m with Nikolai Bezroukov; who called it a fundamentally broken document decades ago; with many of its assertions based on a pseudo-religious faith.
https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/708/61...
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Don’t bother with your veneer of made up terms and condescending and dehumanizing “you’ve unfortunately” … “been doing things I don’t like and I have the power even though I hide behind a process that keeps me believing I’m not the bad person I am”.
Just do it. Just abuse your power like you want to.
Tyrants are tyrants, even when they have “democratic elections” and proclaim how they support free speech as long as it is speech they approve.
Let’s get this done with. You want to abuse all the tools you have to frame and control the speech of others, so just do it. Stop acting like you have some reasonable process to make yourself feel better about what you are.
You go on to call it "typically contemporarily narcissistic", but the architectural style of Modernism is not contemporary to us.
Also, drawing the connection between Eugène Viollet-le-Duc and Modernism architecture to argue for removing Eugène's glass with a more modern style ignores his own motivation for his restoration which was to restore Notre-Dame to it's original gothic style. The reason Eugène's stained glass is there is because past canons had "modernized" it by replacing the original medieval stained glass with plain white panes.
And there is no meaningful way of restoring Notre-Dame to an "original style" without making it unrecognisable to us - it consists of many hundreds of years of substantial alterations. While Viollet-le-Duc tried to find a compromise that worked, the result is that it is an eclectic 19th century mix of styles that never existed previously.
WTF people? This is a building dedicated to a dude who said 'love everyone' and 'forgive everyone so you can see past judgement and instead see who they truly are and their worth'. Built to be a physical representation of the power/holiness of that ideal. It's easy to love the in-crowd. It's easy to love/understand those we know. But old boy's message was about more than that.
Should they indeed be replaced, it's a hardeware problem. But by adding computer controled (depeding on sunlight conditions) tinted light bulbs it can be fixed in software.
If it even gets installed, watch in two decades as the old windows are returned once the banal novelty wears off.
What are you on?
You could, I don't know, actually look at the use of stained glass in churches and seen that the new windows fit squarely in the tradition of Catholic Church: https://www.gettyimages.se/fotografier/catholic-church-stain...
Not to mention that the current glass from the 19th century was literally put there by "the father of modern/modernist architecture"
Modernist art started in the late 1800's century, and lasted into the early 1900's. Eugène Viollet-le-Duc's restoration of Notre-Dame started in 1844, and Viollet-le-Duc is often hailed as a prominent theoretician of modernism.